PWCC planning to redefine the difference between altered and conserved in cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

The sh*t going on out there is just evil. At some point does it reach a critical mass and people start asking what the %^&* is going on, or do we just go about our business and keep on praising all the major players and talking about how wonderful they are? Just the latest example by the super sleuth on blowout. If you check his ID you can find all his recent threads.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14636793

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The sh*t going on out there is just evil. At some point does it reach a critical mass and people start asking what the %^&* is going on, or do we just go about our business and keep on praising all the major players and talking about how wonderful they are? Just the latest example by the super sleuth on blowout. If you check his ID you can find all his recent threads.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1#post14636793

The critical mass question is huge. But I'll pose a hypothesis: perhaps the collecting population is large enough that there is enough people out there who will tolerate this evil sh*t.
Of course, shenanigans with cards is not new. The recent trimming and forgery discoveries have been well-documented, but I don't think it's any new development in the hobby. I would presume that anybody bidding on "investment" cards, any cards that sell for five figures or more, etc. are well aware of the risks involved when it comes to alterations/restoration/etc. And yet the hobby still experiences record highs all over the place. People know, and they still bid.
Optimistic take: the hobby is in a strong place with a big population of collectors driving interest in all facets.
Pessimistic take: the buyers have the power to accept or veto this evil sh*t with their wallets. If people are accepting of obvious alterations, while also not expecting disclosure of them, then dang. From my time here, it seems that the general consensus of the board is that alterations suck and disclosure is necessary, which I'm in agreement with. If the future of the hobby is alterations everywhere and no disclosure, we're in a world of hurt.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think we already have alterations everywhere and no disclosure. And have had for some time. What I find troubling about recent events is that people are actually defending it, as opposed to being upset about it. Just today we have heard high praise from multiple sources for the very company proposing a preposterous new definition of altered cards. It's Kafkaesque, or something.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think we already have alterations everywhere and no disclosure. And have had for some time. What I find troubling about recent events is that people are actually defending it, as opposed to being upset about it. Just today we have heard high praise from multiple sources for the very company proposing a preposterous new definition of altered cards. It's Kafkaesque, or something.

What really struck me was those that continued purchasing/consigning to known/questionable businesses.

Lots of proof exists about some of the dealings these companies do but a blind eye is turned as long as money is involved. It's amazing what greed can do to a person.

I also have strong admiration for the likes of Jeffrey and others who try their best to convict these types only to find out, despite the evidence and convictions sometimes, that those doing some of the complaining are right back dealing with these types. I honestly don't know how they don't throw in the towel and just give up?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I find troubling about recent events is that people are actually defending it, as opposed to being upset about it. Just today we have heard high praise from multiple sources for the very company proposing a preposterous new definition of altered cards. It's Kafkaesque, or something.

And you really don’t know why? It’s not Kafkaesque at all and you know it.

This is the hobby. The more it changes, the more it stays the same.

Edited to add: does anyone care that Heritage gives themselves permission to bid on their own lots? To me that’s way more bothersome than Brent helping people evade taxes.

[Rascal1010]

I think everyone needs to relax a little bit, PWCC may very well be doing the collectors in this hobby a huge favor with this new definition. If PWCC feels comfortable selling by their definition "conserved" cards, then let them go about their business. As long as they are willing to sell "doctored" cards in their auctions, that is where consignors will consign them, and thankfully they will be off of the market and out of the general hobby, since a good portion of these will be purchased "tax-free" and stored in the vault in Oregon, hopefully to never see the light of day again. Maybe the new definition of what is "altered" or "conserved" just goes hand in hand with the vault business model. I say consign all the "doctored" cards to PWCC and let them store them.

[itslarry]

Conix books press and no one seems to mind.
The art world is full of restoration.
Iunno as long as its disclosed, and keeps something from becoming trash, go for it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by itslarry

Conix books press and no one seems to mind.
The art world is full of restoration.
Iunno as long as its disclosed, and keeps something from becoming trash, go for it.

But it's not disclosed, the information is ferreted out. Plus TPG failures actively hide disclosure and even give arm's length sellers plausible deniability.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Edited to add: does anyone care that Heritage gives themselves permission to bid on their own lots? To me that’s way more bothersome than Brent helping people evade taxes.

This blows my mind more than anything else I've ever encountered if that makes you feel better.

I'v always been amazed that there hasn't been more hue and cry about it, but then again as an auctioneer I know nobody actually reads terms and conditions besides auctioneers and lawyers.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

This blows my mind more than anything else I've ever encountered if that makes you feel better.

I'v always been amazed that there hasn't been more hue and cry about it, but then again as an auctioneer I know nobody actually reads terms and conditions besides auctioneers and lawyers.

They are not the only ones who've done/do this. This "practice" is becoming more the standard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And you really don’t know why? It’s not Kafkaesque at all and you know it.

This is the hobby. The more it changes, the more it stays the same.

Edited to add: does anyone care that Heritage gives themselves permission to bid on their own lots? To me that’s way more bothersome than Brent helping people evade taxes.

I always wanted to mention Kafka in a post, leave me alone.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Sometimes I'm glad to be a little guy. I don't even have to wonder what I would do in these situations. I just don't live in those rent districts. If I ever succumb to the temptation to cut ethical corners I officially invite the board to let me have it.