PWCC vault?

Spike · #1 05-03-2019, 04:42 AM

Sounds a lot like practices from the fine art market bleeding into baseball cards, so PWCC can process ongoing transactions without buyers and sellers ever seeing their "art investments" or needing to remove them from storage. If baseball collecting were more international, we could expect a similar vault on a Cayman Island for further tax savings. Perhaps they offer that kind of big-spender service in a less-publicized way? (While not an art expert myself, Google provides a lot of info on the world of fine art markets.)

frankrizzo29 · #2 05-03-2019, 06:15 AM

I know that when OH residents file their state income tax return that they have the ability to list all purchases made during that tax year in which they did not pay any sales tax. Any sales tax that should have been paid is than added to their income tax liability and paid at that time with their tax return. I am pretty confident that all other states have the same thing when filing their returns. However, I am not sure how to handle this for states like Florida that have no state income tax. ( I must admit that I am surprised that of all the CPAs who were consulted that no one mentioned this).

With that said, rather than bashing the PWCC Vault for their poor marketing tactics, I am really curious to hear why people should or should not use the PWCC Vault.

calvindog · #3 05-03-2019, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

With that said, rather than bashing the PWCC Vault for their poor marketing tactics, I am really curious to hear why people should or should not use the PWCC Vault.

To avoid paying sales tax.

Rhotchkiss · #4 05-03-2019, 06:32 AM

My biggest issue with the vault is that it is in Oregon and I am in Maryland. If they put a vault in Delaware (hint hint), another state with no sales tax, I would strongly consider using such an East-Side service.

TUM301 · #5 05-03-2019, 06:36 AM

New Hampshire, "Live Free Or Die", no sales or income tax.

ullmandds · #6 05-03-2019, 06:48 AM

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

Peter_Spaeth · #7 05-03-2019, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

Dinosaur.

conor912 · #8 05-03-2019, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dinosaur.

Haha

KingFisk · #9 05-03-2019, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

I was poking around the investment advisory pages on the PWCC website last night and the word "joyless" came to mind. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money but for me collecting is more about history and personal fulfillment.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

conor912 · #10 05-03-2019, 08:58 AM

I have a ton of questions about this, but I just realized I don't even care enough to type them all out. To each their own...even if their own is stupid.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 05-03-2019, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingFisk

I was poking around the investment advisory pages on the PWCC website last night and the word "joyless" came to mind. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money but for me collecting is more about history and personal fulfillment.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

New world. In their (IMO baseless and disingenuous) defense of the altered PSA 4.5 Mantle that they posted on Blowout, they refer to it as an "asset." Good Lord.

Leon · #12 05-03-2019, 09:21 AM

I will be devil's advocate, a little bit. There are many who will find the investment aspect of collecting to be insane, stupid, or worse. However, I am also sure there are quite a few who think it's not a bad idea. The one thing I think I got out of college was learning that my view is often not shared by many, or even most, and that's ok. I am more than happy to share my collecting space with anyone who wants to do so in an honest and transparent way. Investor, collector, whatever.... The more the merrier. And if we don't think there are investors coming into our hobby then we are either naive or stupid, one of the two. I like what Brent is doing even if most of it isn't for me personally. Also, after getting to know Brent a little better there is no doubt in my mind that when he makes a mistake, as we all do, he will fix it quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingFisk

I was poking around the investment advisory pages on the PWCC website last night and the word "joyless" came to mind. I don't begrudge anyone trying to make money but for me collecting is more about history and personal fulfillment.

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

Peter_Spaeth · #13 05-03-2019, 09:25 AM

Do you like his defense of the altered 4.5 Mantle? To summarize, soaking and pressing a corner is "conservation" because it moves the card closer to its original state.

Leon · #14 05-03-2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you like his defense of the altered 4.5 Mantle? To summarize, soaking and pressing a corner is "conservation" because it moves the card closer to its original state.

Of course not. Soaking and pressing isn't something I would condone or approve of. To me that is just too much. I could see soaking gunk off of a card and have done so.

ullmandds · #15 05-03-2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I will be devil's advocate, a little bit. There are many who will find the investment aspect of collecting to be insane, stupid, or worse. However, I am also sure there are quite a few who think it's not a bad idea. The one thing I think I got out of college was learning that my view is often not shared by many, or even most, and that's ok. I am more than happy to share my collecting space with anyone who wants to do so in an honest and transparent way. Investor, collector, whatever.... The more the merrier. And if we don't think there are investors coming into our hobby then we are either naive or stupid, one of the two. I like what Brent is doing even if most of it isn't for me personally. Also, after getting to know Brent a little better there is no doubt in my mind that when he makes a mistake, as we all do, he will fix it quickly.

And how was that issue of blatant altering of a 36 wwg gehrig sold by pwcc a few years ago �fixed?�

Peter_Spaeth · #16 05-03-2019, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

And how was that issue of blatant altering of a 36 wwg gehrig sold by pwcc a few years ago �fixed?�

PSA ultimately zapped the card, I believe. PWCC happily sold it without disclosure prior to that.

Dpeck100 · #17 05-03-2019, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Gee! Considering most of us here are collectors...i actually like to physically possess the cards i buy/own. So for me this is a nonstarter not even a discussion .

I agree completely. I certainly could understand why some who actively buy and sell might consider it as an option but I like to see and "play" with my cards.

Republicaninmass · #18 05-04-2019, 06:55 AM

Quick inner net search says

"*If*the retailer does not*collect sales tax, the purchaser has the obligation to pay use*tax*directly to the state where the property is used as long as the item is taxable. ..:"

Awfully thin line there

steve B · #19 05-04-2019, 12:52 PM

I must say that I'm enjoying the bit of discussion between Barry and Scott.
It's always nice to get the views of someone who has or is actually in that business.

Let me rephrase my thought on recommending against bidding.

Lets say there's someone who is spending loads of money every auction, and buys stuff looking at quality and investment. And their question is something like "what do you think of card X? should I go for it?"
Now lets say the card is a 9, but not a great 9 and the auctioneer knows that buyer won't ultimately be happy with it OR, a card that they feel may have peaked and should be available for less in a year or two...

I think that saying either of those things is the only honest answer. Plus, while it may not serve the consigner best, someone who regularly spends a lot may over time generate far more for the auction house.

Or, I could be entirely wrong. I'd love to hear the perspectives of people actually doing business at that sort of level.

barrysloate · #20 05-04-2019, 03:51 PM

I think you have to be honest, that's the answer. And I know as an auctioneer I need to be careful.

If I told that hypothetical bidder he might not be happy with the card and he chooses not to bid, the card is still likely to sell for a retail price, and bidder, consignor, and auction house should all be happy (hopefully).

But if I tell the bidder falsely thst he will love the card, and he gets and not only doesn't like it but wants to return it for a refund, I have a bit of a disaster on my hands. Then I might not be able to pay my consignor if the underbidder doesn't want it.

So best thing is to tell the truth. It might cost the consignor one extra bid, but IMO that's the best way to resolve that problem.

swarmee · #21 05-04-2019, 06:11 PM

"No comment" is both a lack of an answer and an answer at the same time. Maybe that's the correct response.

MULLINS5 · #22 05-14-2019, 08:04 PM

What would happen if Oregon suddenly passed sales tax legislation?

Fuddjcal · #23 05-15-2019, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think you have to be honest, that's the answer. And I know as an auctioneer I need to be careful.

If I told that hypothetical bidder he might not be happy with the card and he chooses not to bid, the card is still likely to sell for a retail price, and bidder, consignor, and auction house should all be happy (hopefully).

But if I tell the bidder falsely thst he will love the card, and he gets and not only doesn't like it but wants to return it for a refund, I have a bit of a disaster on my hands. Then I might not be able to pay my consignor if the underbidder doesn't want it.

So best thing is to tell the truth. It might cost the consignor one extra bid, but IMO that's the best way to resolve that problem.

Imagine That Barry... Just Tell the truth, LOL. You do it but that's one thing PWCC has a hard time with because he would incriminate himself, IMHO

pokerplyr80 · #24 05-14-2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Quick inner net search says

"*If*the retailer does not*collect sales tax, the purchaser has the obligation to pay use*tax*directly to the state where the property is used as long as the item is taxable. ..:"

Awfully thin line there

If the asset is shipped to Oregon, stored there, then eventually sold and shipped from there, I fail to see the issue. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the line doesn't seel thin to me at all.

Now if it's shipped to the vault, stored for a month or 2, then shipped to CA or NY I cam foresee an issue arising.

Peter_Spaeth · #25 05-14-2019, 10:43 PM

"The asset?" Oh no is Brent-speak contagious?

pokerplyr80 · #26 05-14-2019, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"The asset?" Oh no is Brent-speak contagious?

Just keeping with the spirit of the thread. I am curious if any tax professionals or CPAs know how if there is an amount of time something shipped to and kept in Oregon needs to stay there so that it wouldn't be legally taxable when transported out of the state.

Peter_Spaeth · #27 05-14-2019, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Just keeping with the spirit of the thread. I am curious if any tax professionals or CPAs know how if there is an amount of time something shipped to and kept in Oregon needs to stay there so that it wouldn't be legally taxable when transported out of the state.

It might depend on the use tax laws and regulations of each state, although I'm not sure a temporal gap really matters if the owner continuously retained ownership even if the "asset" was physically elsewhere.

vintagetoppsguy · #28 05-14-2019, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If the asset is shipped to Oregon, stored there, then eventually sold and shipped from there, I fail to see the issue. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the line doesn't seel thin to me at all.

Now if it's shipped to the vault, stored for a month or 2, then shipped to CA or NY I cam foresee an issue arising.

Right! Not sure why people aren't getting this. It's not a service I'd use, but its perfectly legal. I would assume that if the buyer wanted to take possession of it later, then taxes would be due at that time.

Peter_Spaeth · #29 05-14-2019, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Right! Not sure why people aren't getting this. It's not a service I'd use, but its perfectly legal. I would assume that if the buyer wanted to take possession of it later, then taxes would be due at that time.

Taxes being due and taxes being paid are two different things particularly where the state doesn't know what you bought, I would assume. Whereas if it's collected at the time of sale, there's no payment issue.

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