Are We Slaves To The Registry?

[frankbmd]

As an appendage to my prior post

If an item is truly rare, the sky is the limit on pricing. For example, if there are only two of an item extant, and ten people feel they “need” to have it in an auction, then have at it.

However if there are only two of an item based on a PSA Pop Report such as a “10” of any card, and if there are 87 “9” s of the same card or item and 342 “8” s of the same card, all of which are barely discernible as different without an electron microscopic, then there is something rotten in Denmark.

If you cannot differentiate between these two examples, you have missed the point of this thread. I am not on an campaign to eliminate the Registry or PSA, nor am I eager to return to the early years of the twentieth century and get my Cobbs by smoking Piedmonts.

Members of this board are entitled to have different opinions. Mine is not unique. Has the hobby become a lottery ticket or a casino based on manufactured rarity? If so, I consider that unfortunate change. I prefer to collect baseball history rather than sit at a blackjack table, and I have done both successfully.

[Peter_Spaeth]

TPG has many positives, but what I like least about it is that it has, IMO, resulted in the slabbing of a vast number of altered cards, enriched many a criminal card doctor, and created a generation of collectors who seem to have no knowledge of or concern about alteration.

[barrysloate]

David- I agree with you completely that the hobby is changing. Everything in life changes, and we don't always accept those changes easily.

But are you suggesting that part of what makes the new hobby great (my word "great") is buying raw cards to get them slabbed, and to look for undergraded cards to get them crossed-over? That doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. If anything, it corroborates Frank's original point that we are becoming too beholden to third party grading.

Another way the hobby is changing is that set breaks have become extremely popular at baseball card shows. From what I hear, they have become a rage. But it seems to me that they could just as easily take place in a Las Vegas casino as they would at a baseball card show. It's really more a game of chance, like roulette or blackjack, than it is a form of card collecting.

So while these changes may be embraced by some, they make me long for the good old days. Hope the old fashioned way never goes out of style. Again, the history of what I collect is much more important to me than what label a quasi-expert slaps onto a plastic slab. That said, collect whatever you like, however you like doing it.

[drcy]

I'm definitely an old timer about collecting, in sentiments if not age, and am apt to criticize, and sometimes mock, the registry and grading. Believe it or not, I've never sent in a card for grading and have owned a total of perhaps 10 graded cards. However, there's no one-size-fits all to collecting, and if people enjoy set breaks and the registry that's no harm to me.

In the 1990s, I collected and sold modern cards (along with old), so I never criticize modern collectors or modern cards (sans those dumb autograph cuts ones). I think many modern inserts are rather neat.

To each his own.

[ullmandds]

Well Frank...if TPG'ers didn't exist, neither would the majority of your questions?

I believe the registry is voluntary...so we are not slaves to the registry...we are slaves to the TPG'ers!

[Touch'EmAll]

I can see how some people like the registry, others dislike. Whatever you like is ok. Years back I started a couple registry player sets, eventually stopped, not my cup of tea. The registry has helped drive up prices, that is good for what I own, no real complaints here on that topic. After all, don't we all want our stuff to go up in value.

As for TPGers, the biggest thing I like is being able to buy a PSA 7 card, and for the most part, you actually receive a true NMT card. Back before TPG, you often bought a supposed advertised NMT card, and was disappointed when you got it - not really NMT, overgraded and actually maybe EXMT. Then you get to haggle with the seller to send it back, the return, the wait, finally get a refund if all goes well.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

David- I agree with you completely that the hobby is changing. Everything in life changes, and we don't always accept those changes easily.

But are you suggesting that part of what makes the new hobby great (my word "great") is buying raw cards to get them slabbed, and to look for undergraded cards to get them crossed-over? That doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy. If anything, it corroborates Frank's original point that we are becoming too beholden to third party grading.

Another way the hobby is changing is that set breaks have become extremely popular at baseball card shows. From what I hear, they have become a rage. But it seems to me that they could just as easily take place in a Las Vegas casino as they would at a baseball card show. It's really more a game of chance, like roulette or blackjack, than it is a form of card collecting.

So while these changes may be embraced by some, they make me long for the good old days. Hope the old fashioned way never goes out of style. Again, the history of what I collect is much more important to me than what label a quasi-expert slaps onto a plastic slab. That said, collect whatever you like, however you like doing it.

Barry my comment was simply saying that it takes more than money to create a top registry set. You have to hunt and take chances and money alone doesn't do that for you. There is real skill involved in finding raw cards or cards in other third party graded holders that you think you can achieve grades that work for you. I have hunted every single day since August of 2009 to build my sets. Left work dinners to go bid on cards forced wholesalers to bring their I-pads to lunches prior to me having a smart phone so I didn't miss out on chances to win. Stayed up wayyy past my bed time to make sure I won. Whatever it took. You have to want it and have passion and this notion that people who collect high grade cards only care about the slab is ludicrous.

I don't poke fun at people who only buy 5's and 6's. For the most part people buy what they can afford and so if that is what is in someone's budget so be it. If they are getting enjoyment out of buying and owning trading cards fantastic.

There was no graded wrestling card market before I came along. There wasn't countless people that said wow that is a great investment I need to get in. I decided to collect a genre of cards that I cared about and that would give me enjoyment. That is the best reason to collect in my view but there are plenty of others that are just fine too.

Many on here play in the big boy space where cards go into the millions. No one can convince me you should be buying a card that is more than 5k and not have investment as part of the reason you are buying it. I think a lot of people try and convince themselves that they are only doing it for purity. There is no such thing. There is no right way to collect but what is constant around here is people taking shots at those that like to try and put high grade sets together as if they are what is wrong with the hobby. Who in there right mind would rather stare at a card that is beat to shit vs. near perfect? No one. High grade cards are drastically more ascetically pleasing and if money was no object everyone would collect them. You have to stay in your lane and collect what you can but firing shots at those that want the best is ridiculous.

I am not an average guy. Have no desire to be average and so it wouldn't make sense for me to try and collect average cards. It took me seven years to finally get the last card for my 82 A Wrestling All Stars set in a PSA 9 or higher. I cried when I put it on the wall in its new home because it stood for dedication and passion and kicking ass.

Third party grading is here to stay and so one can choose to live with it and ride the wave or keep their cards raw but it isn't going anywhere and the trend is only getting stronger.

[barrysloate]

Thanks David, and I understand that you collect the way that makes you happy. I think the registry has caused prices on high end cards to increase so drastically that there are only a small number of people who can even compete for them. I collect VG-Ex to Ex not because I like to see flaws on cards, but because high grade cards are out of my range.

When I saw the 1932 U.S. Caramel Hornsby sell for $52,000, I was astounded. I understand chasing after a Wagner or a Plank or a 52 Mantle, because those are iconic cards and there are countless collectors who would like to own them. But in my 37 years in the hobby, nearly 30 of them as a full time dealer, I never once had a collector come to me looking for a U.S. Caramel Hornsby. That's an esoteric set, and while Hornsby was a great player, his cards are not as popular as Cobb or Matty or Wajo. That price was almost surely a product of two registry collectors going head to head until one of them blinked.

So yes, as you said the hobby has changed and many of us are scratching our heads and watching prices reach levels that we could never have imagined.

[frankbmd]

The concept of a 100 year old card looking near perfect is difficult for many of us to grasp. I saw the PSA 8 Wagner on display in Beverly Hills before the Sotheby’s auction where it was purchased by Gretzky and McNall. It indeed looked near perfect, but there was a problem with the card that was not disclosed at that time. Near perfect is not synonymous with untampered with and authentic. The genesis of the Registry began with the grading of that card.

If I had millions to invest (and I do not), and despite my love of the game of baseball, I honestly doubt that investing in near perfect 100 year old baseball cards would be my cup of tea. Call me crazy. That’s fine with me.

[barrysloate]

Okay, you're crazy.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Thanks David, and I understand that you collect the way that makes you happy. I think the registry has caused prices on high end cards to increase so drastically that there are only a small number of people who can even compete for them. I collect VG-Ex to Ex not because I like to see flaws on cards, but because high grade cards are out of my range.

When I saw the 1932 U.S. Caramel Hornsby sell for $52,000, I was astounded. I understand chasing after a Wagner or a Plank or a 52 Mantle, because those are iconic cards and there are countless collectors who would like to own them. But in my 37 years in the hobby, nearly 30 of them as a full time dealer, I never once had a collector come to me looking for a U.S. Caramel Hornsby. That's an esoteric set, and while Hornsby was a great player, his cards are not as popular as Cobb or Matty or Wajo. That price was almost surely a product of two registry collectors going head to head until one of them blinked.

So yes, as you said the hobby has changed and many of us are scratching our heads and watching prices reach levels that we could never have imagined.

I just looked at the Pop report and there is one with none higher. I use term the best and someone will say it is not the best but only PSA says it is the best but regardless the new owner can say they own the best example that exists. The price reflects that.

One of the comparisons I have drawn in the past is cards can be viewed as art. In a case like this while $52,800 may seem like a ton of money for a single card there are pieces of art that go into the hundreds of millions. Many pieces that are not exactly ones that most even find appealing looking.

Trading cards are relics of history and so in reality as you are aware all it takes is two people with a lot of dough that want to own something and the sky is the limit.

Quite frankly when I see what some modern cards sell for it is easier for me to understand this price than some of those. I think a huge percentage of card prices are bragging rights. Getting to say you own something very few can. There really is no utility that cards provide and they are simply objects to admire. With there being small differences in cards that grade in this range the one thing you can revert back to is the idea that it is the finest known copy and so to someone that is worth a lot. It is a balancing act for me at times paying high prices just for condition rarity and in reality it comes back to the ability to replace it in that grade and the fact that I want to have the #1 set. Only one person from each set can say they do and this does fuel prices no doubt.

When I used to show people my wrestling cards they would laugh. I would say laugh all you want this is the only PSA 10 so far that exists. Are you serious??? Yeah. OMG that is really cool. This is just how humans are.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On the subject of modern cards, there are some amazing threads on Blowout about altered high end cards that get past PSA and Beckett. Scary stuff.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

On the subject of modern cards, there are some amazing threads on Blowout about altered high end cards that get past PSA and Beckett. Scary stuff.

I have seen those and it is eye opening. The modern market is less registry driven and more owning stock in a current player.

Look what happened with Tom Brady cards and Tiger Woods cards. You can literally own something that if they perform it can perform just like a share of stock. That is pretty exciting in reality.

[frankbmd]

Spot on about bragging rights and the Registry.

Fortunately I am just fine with my paltry 6 figure collection. I never brag and rarely mention my collection to friends, who are uniformly disinterested. I’m sure some of them think I’m crazy as well, but they are kind enough to keep it to themselves. And I do enjoy the hobby.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Spot on about bragging rights and the Registry.

Fortunately I am just fine with my paltry 6 figure collection. I never brag and rarely mention my collection to friends, who are uniformly disinterested. I’m sure some of them think I’m crazy as well, but they are kind enough to keep it to themselves. And I do enjoy the hobby.

There are much worse things you can do with money. I started pouring money into cards after getting hit pretty good trading options in 2008. I wanted something that regardless of the direction of the value I still had something vs. an option contract that just went up in smoke.

You have to have some cards that have performed quite well and I have found that when people here about the increases that have occurred they don't think the idea of paying for a piece of cardboard is that silly anymore.

I love telling people about what has occurred in the high end baseball card market. I don't own any of it but to me it is awesome that you can buy something that is tangible and it can perform in a similar manner to stocks. I think it is really cool.