Holsum research questions

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Please help me with my research of the D327 Holsum Bread set. Two questions:

1) Can anyone confirm the existence of a Type 1 Holsum card that does NOT have an e135-style photo; i.e., fake horizon/washed-out background?
The closest I've come is the card of Dave Davenport, who was part of a large lot sold in Heritage awhile back. That card was graded as 1920 by SGC, but so was the entire 63 card lot, I believe, and I don't necessarily trust their attention to accuracy (they likely missed on a couple of others). No back scan was provided to confirm.

2) Can anyone confirm that one or more of these subjects can be found with a Type 1 back?:

A: Bagby; Donovan; Foster; Gowdy; Griffith; Judge; Peckinpaugh; Pfeffer; Rixey; Ruth; Thomas;Toney;Whitted. These have been confirmed with Type 2.

B: Daubert, Doak; Jennings; Maranville; McInnis; Meadows; Miller O; Pipp; Schupp; Williams F; Witt, Wood. I have seen these with e121-80 or other related backs, but not Holsum.

Thanks for any help, and confirming scans would be very much appreciated.

I'll address your specific questions...

#1) NO, all have E135 front images

#2) A: From your list I have only confirmed Peckinpaugh (interestingly his name is spelled CORRECTLY & then in later E121/Holsum Type 2 & the like printings they mispelled it Peckinbaugh),

[nolemmings]

Have you seen the back of the to confirm for certain that it is a Type 2? I understand your reasoning and don't disagree, but the others you cite also had a Type 1 version that used the 1917 pose. Davenport has no 1917 card, which points to him either not having a Type 1 card (likely) or being the sole Type 1 card to use a non-1917 pose (unlikely). I will assume he is Type 2 going forward, and hope to see a front/back scan combo to put the matter to rest.

If Davenport is Holsum Type 2, then there are 55 confirmed of that Type by my count. Of that total, I only show the following 16 Type 2 cards with a background in the pose; i.e., an updated or different photo from the 1917 E135 cards:

Alexander, Bodie, Cobb, Coveleskie, Davenport (assuming he is Type 2), Evers, Henry, Hooper, Hornsby, Killefer, Lewis, Speaker, Stock, Strunk, Wambganss, and Wingo.

Oddly, the Coveleskie and Henry cards were changed even though neither really belonged in either Holsum set, having already played their final MLB games more than a year before the earlier set was printed. Instead of removing these outdated players, the publisher granted them an additional appearance with a new pose. Also, Wambsganss was changed from a correct, 1917 photo in Type 1 to an incorrect photo of Fritz Coumbe in Type 2--the same incorrect photo Mendelsohn had used for Wamby in his m101-4 set (hmmm...)

In any event, does anybody else have other Holsum players showing a background other than those on my above list?

[Jobu]

I can add a scan of my Holsum Schalk and a link to Zach's great site where he was keeping track of confirmed cards, though it might not be up to date:

https://www.louisianacards.com/holsum-bread.html

[asphaltman]

My only two. Pretty sure Wambganss has two different photos in this set, one the Type 1 and the other variation Type 2

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I can add a scan of my Holsum Schalk and a link to Zach's great site where he was keeping track of confirmed cards, though it might not be up to date:

Thanks Brian, I have seen Zach's list and note it has some names with question marks. If those get confirmed, I'll be happy to add them. Frankly, there are lot of potential additions out there, especially a Type 1 Babe Ruth.

My only two. Pretty sure Wambganss has two different photos in this set, one the Type 1 and the other variation Type 2

Thanks Dave. I believe yours is the only Wamby Type 1 that I have seen. Type 2 is the aforementioned error/mis-identification of Fritz Coumbe as Wambsganss. If there is a different Type 2 I have not seen it. A shame they didn't use the m101-6 pose, which I like alot.

Todd, I owned the Davenport until recently. I add nobody to my confirmed list unless I have seen them in hand or have 100% concrete evidence which back is present.

Thanks Rhett. I can put that one to rest. He would have been quite the outlier as a Type 1, and I suppose one could surface, but that seems very unlikely.

[nolemmings]

Here is the list of Type 1 Holsums I believe exist. Any comments and additions welcome:
NOTE: I sometimes just used the player's common name for my list rather than the exact name on the card, for example Sam Rice instead of E.C. Rice. I can clean that up, but didn't want people thinking they might have a rare variation just because their cards showed a different spelling. I will try and note changes in caption from Type 1 to Type 2 in other posts.

HOLSUM TYPE 1:

ALEXANDER, GROVER
BAKER, J. FRANKLIN
BANCROFT, DAVE
BARRY, JACK
BURNS, GEO. J
BURNS, TIOGA GEORGE
BUSH, OWEN
CAREY, MAX
CHAPMAN, RAY
CICOTTE, ED

COBB, TY
COLLINS, EDDIE
COVELESKIE, HARRY
CRAVATH, GAVVY
CUTSHAW, GEO.
DAUSS, GEORGE
DEAL, CHARLES
FABER, URBAN
FELSCH, HAP
FLETCHER, ART

FOURNIER, JACQUES
GEDEON, JOE
GRANEY, JOHN?
GROH, HEINIE
HARPER, HARRY
HEILMANN, HARRY
HENRY, JOHN
HERZOG, BUCK
HOLKE, WALTER
HOOPER, HARRY

HORNSBY, ROGERS
JACKSON, JOE
JANVRIN, HAROLD
JOHNSON, WALTER
JOHNSTON, JAMES
KAUFF, BENNY
KILLEFER, BILL
LAVAN, JOHN
LEIBOLD, NEMO
LEONARD, DUTCH

LEWIS, DUFFY
MAMAUX, AL
MCGRAW, JOHN
MILAN, CLYDE
MORGAN, RAY
MORTON, GUY
MYERS, HY
NEHF, ARTIE
O'NEILL, STEVE
PECKINPAUGH, ROGER


PRATT, DERRIL?
RARIDEN, BILL
RICE, SAM
ROBERTSON, DAVEY
ROTH, BOB
ROUSH, ED
RUDOLPH, DICK
SALLEE, SLIM
SCHALK, RAY
SCOTT, EVERETT

SEVEREID, HANK
SHAWKEY, BOB
SHORE, ERNIE
SHOTTON, BURT
SISLER, GEORGE
SMITH, J. CARLISLE
STENGEL. CHARLES
STOCK, MILT
STRUNK, AMOS
TYLER, GEORGE

VAUGHN, JIM
VEACH, BOB
VITT, OSCAR
WALSH, JIM
WAMBSGANSS, BILL
WEILMAN, CARL?
WHEAT, ZACH
WILLIAMS, CLAUDE
YOUNG, PEP

[rhettyeakley]

Todd here are my Type 1's that have all been confirmed, I owned nearly all of them so they were mostly in my possession... (names are as they appear on the card, except on card the names are all caps)

Grover Alexander
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Jack Barry
George Burns
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Ray Chapman
Eddie Cicotte
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Harry Covaleskie
Gavvy Cravath
Geo. Cutshaw
Geo. Dauss
Charles Deal
Urban Faber
"Hap" Felsch
Art Fletcher
Jacques Fournier
Joe Gedeon
John Graney
Heinie Groh
Harry Harper
Harry Heilmann
John Henry
"Buck" Herzog
Walter Holke
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Jackson
Harold Janvrin
Walter Johnson
James Johnston
Benny Kauff
Wm. Killefer Jr.
John Lavan
"Nemo" Leibold
H. B. Leonard
Duffy Lewis
Al Mamaux
John J. McGraw
Clyde Milan
Ray Morgan
Guy Morton
"Hy" Myers
Arthur Nehf
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinpaugh
Derril Pratt
Bill Rariden
E. C. Rice
Davey Robertson
"Bob" Roth
Ed Roush
Dick Rudolph
"Slim" Sallee
Ray Schalk
Everett Scott
Hank Severeid
Bob Shawkey
Ernie Shore
Burt Shotton
Geo. Sisler
J. Carlisle Smith
Amos Strunk
George Tyler
Jim Vaughn
Bob Veach
Oscar Vitt
Jim Walsh
Carl Weilman
Zack Wheat
Claude Williams
"Pep" Young

Here are the confirmed Type 2's...
Grover Alexander
Jim Bagby
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Ping Bodie
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Harry Covaleskie
Jake Daubert
George Dauss
Dave Davenport
Charles Deal
Bill Donovan
Urban Faber
Jacques Fournier
Hank Gowdy
John Graney
Tom Griffith
John Henry
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
James Johnston
Joe Judge
Bill Killefer
Duffy Lewis
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Otto Miller
Ray Morgan
Guy Morton
Arthur Nehf
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinbaugh
Jeff Pfeffer
E. C. Rice
Eppa Rixey, Jr.
Babe Ruth
"Slim" Sallee
Ray Schalk
Walter Schang
George Sisler
J. Carlisle Smith
Charles Stengel
Milton Stock
Amos Strunk
Fred Toney
Chester Thomas
George Tyler
W. Wambsganss (w/o background-E135 image)
W. Wambsganss (w/ background-E121 image)
Zach Wheat
George Whitted
Pep" Young


I have positions-pose-team recorded for all players in both sets in the above lists (as they appear on the cards).

[soxinseven]

You can add Everett Scott to the type 2 list. I sent a scan to Todd today. I’ve had it for years, bought it on the old board I believe.

[ZachS]

Sorry I'm late to the party. I never have time to slow down anymore with the kids always involved in something (right now it's baseball... much better than soccer).

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Todd here are my Type 1's that have all been confirmed, I owned nearly all of them so they were mostly in my possession...

You are 100% certain of the Type 1's and 2's on your list? If so, I will update the website accordingly. I have many discrepancies when comparing my list to yours... granted I was going off what little information I could find at the time.

Type 1 differences:

-Cards on my list with a "?" as to what type (on your list as Type 1's):
Eddie Collins
Jacques Fournier

-Cards on my list as Type 1's but not on your list:
Dave Davenport
Bill Donovan (pitching)
Walter Schang
Charles Stengel
Milton Stock

-Card I have listed as Type 2 only (also listed on your list as Type 1):
J. Carlisle Smith

Type 2 differences:

-Cards I have listed only as Type 1's (Type 2's on your list):
Grover Alexander
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Harry Covaleskie
Dave Davenport
Bill Donovan
Urban Faber
John Henry
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
James Johnston
John McGraw
Guy Morton
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinbaugh
Ray Schalk
Walter Schang
Milton Stock
Pep Young

-Cards on my list as "?" (you have listed as Type 2's):
Ping Bodie
Jacques Fornier
Hank Gowdy
Tom Griffith
Joe Judge
Otto Miller
W. Wambsganss - I don't have this card listed as having 2 variations w/ and w/o background

-Cards not on my list at all (you have listed as Type 2's):
Jim Bagby
Jake Daubert
Eppa Rixey, Jr.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Have you seen the back of the to confirm for certain that it is a Type 2? I understand your reasoning and don't disagree, but the others you cite also had a Type 1 version that used the 1917 pose. Davenport has no 1917 card, which points to him either not having a Type 1 card (likely) or being the sole Type 1 card to use a non-1917 pose (unlikely). I will assume he is Type 2 going forward, and hope to see a front/back scan combo to put the matter to rest.

If Davenport is Holsum Type 2, then there are 55 confirmed of that Type by my count. Of that total, I only show the following 16 Type 2 cards with a background in the pose; i.e., an updated or different photo from the 1917 E135 cards:

Alexander, Bodie, Cobb, Coveleskie, Davenport (assuming he is Type 2), Evers, Henry, Hooper, Hornsby, Killefer, Lewis, Speaker, Stock, Strunk, Wambganss, and Wingo.

Oddly, the Coveleskie and Henry cards were changed even though neither really belonged in either Holsum set, having already played their final MLB games more than a year before the earlier set was printed. Instead of removing these outdated players, the publisher granted them an additional appearance with a new pose. Also, Wambsganss was changed from a correct, 1917 photo in Type 1 to an incorrect photo of Fritz Coumbe in Type 2--the same incorrect photo Mendelsohn had used for Wamby in his m101-4 set (hmmm...)

In any event, does anybody else have other Holsum players showing a background other than those on my above list?

Todd, I owned the Davenport until recently. I add nobody to my confirmed list unless I have seen them in hand or have 100% concrete evidence which back is present.

[nolemmings]

Thanks guys. I will try and provide my list of Type 1 Holsums soon, but have some Holiday obligations.