Collecting Hank Aaron and Willie Mays

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Jason - I'm glad I'm not the only Board member who realizes that.

Frankly, I was not aware that Mr. Mays had to deal with an abundance of BS over the course of his lengthy career. His managers all thought highly of him. As far as I know, his teammates liked him OK. The fans in New York particularly loved him. Frisco fans were expecting a kazillion home runs, etc. When the numbers were modest, Mr. Mays began to hear cascades of boos. Mr. Mays didn't cotton to that. Mr. Mays became quite disgruntled, and even coerced owner Horace Stoneham to move the fences in at Candlestick Park to accommodate his best power zone. With fences moved in, 40 homers became commonplace.

Then came the 1962 World Series. Lotsa pressure throughout the Series that took the full seven games to decide. Result: no home runs, 3 runs scored, batted .250, 1 RBI. Sour performance was not lost on the Frisco boo-birds. Mr. Mays was not the only Giant to not produce at crunch time. A young Willie McCovey hit .200, but he did hit a home run, and almost broke the decisive seventh game apart with his rifle shot right into Bobby Richardson's mitt. Be that as it may, Mays was by far the recognized leader of the Giants, and he failed. That's not my point here, for Willie made up for it with many more glorious seasons, and prodigious lifetime numbers that stand far above most who've played the game.

Fast forward to the 80s, 90s, and the new Miliennium. Collectors and fans wanted the autograph of Willie Mays, wanted to meet him for a few seconds, wanted to express in a few words how much he meant to them. Do ya think any of those Frisco boo-birds would pay 80 clams, or whatever it cost to get Mr. Mays's autograph?

Ha!

The people forming long lines to meet Willie Mays and buy his autograph were his many thousands of adoring fans, whether they saw him play, or brought a son or daughter to see their father's sports hero. THESE WERE THE PEOPLE WHO LOVED WILLIE, WHO PAID HIS SALARY, WHO WERE PULLING FOR HIM THROUGH THICK AND THIN.

So how does Mr. Mays respond to all this easy money and attention from his fans?

He showers them with rudeness, cold calculating rebuffs, and sends them away with crushed spirits, in shock and shaking their heads wondering, "WHAT DID I DO WRONG?" A very painful bad memory that will last them the rest of their life.

And you my fellow collectors have the temerity to defend such blatant disrespect and an ungrateful heart?

If your life is so colored by bitterness over failed marriages, and a career with so little bling, but then you take it out on the fans who loved you and are paying you serious money to meet you and get your autograph, there's nothing positive that can be said.

----Brian Powell

[Exhibitman]

Regardless of what life dealt Willie or Hank, the test of a man is what he does with adversity. Willie let it turn him into a dick.

I was a Mays fan as a kid when he returned to NYC with the Mets, and I was so excited when I got to finally meet and greet one of my boyhood idols at a card show many years later. Just like so many other boys in mens' bodies, I worked up my courage and tried to express how much Mays meant to me and how honored I was to meet him. He said...nothing. He didn't even acknowledge my existence. Just rolled the signed baseball down the table to the handler. Felt just terrible; I paid someone to insult me. Well, I sold off my entire Mays collection including that Willie-Mickey-Duke signed baseball.

I met Hank Aaron around the same time at another show. His flight was late from Atlanta and he arrived at the show three hours late. He thanked the group for staying around to get his autograph, and when I got up to the front of the line and fan-boyed about how I idolized him as a kid he looked at me and actually spoke to me graciously. I still have the card and ticket, and will until I die:



Anyone who thinks Hank Aaron had it easy in the South Atlantic League and in the Jim Crow years is nuts, not to mention the abuse he endured during the home run chase. What he did with his experiences is the difference between him and Mays. Willie was probably a better ballplayer at his peak but he was never as good a person.

In the end, it does all come down to basic personality traits. In terms of fame, Aaron and Mays do not compare to Muhammad Ali, yet Ali was absolutely the best to his fans because he was a gregarious, outgoing man. You never hear stories of Ali being rude, ignoring kids, etc. Quite the opposite. Same with Babe Ruth.

I realize this has gone far afield from cards, but it does explain some of Mays' lack of popularity for collectors. You have to acknowledge his greatness but the rest of the package doesn't leave you feeling good. Take Roberto Clemente as a contrast. Clemente died heroically, which cemented his legacy among collectors and makes his stuff more desirable than it should be given his relative place in the rankings of great players (39th in career WAR; Mays is 5th, Aaron 7th). Yet as a man, Clemente was someone you'd want your son to emulate.

[Rookiemonster]

Finally got to meet Willie Mays and he was a nice as you could hope for. Maybe it’s you not him. To everyone saying he was a jerk to them.

More recently I’ve met Chipper Jones who people also say is a a hole but guess what ? It’s not true he was very nice to me and my son.

So far only one person has been anything but nice and its Juan marachal. Who was not a jerk by any means just didn’t have anything to say.

Most people are not going by a what others have to say about Mays as much as they are looking at his career and legacy which is unmatched.

Hank aaron is rude according to many and a racist but you don’t hear that as much .

[jchcollins]

Frankly these kinds of stories are another great exmplar of why I never could get into autographs, or I guess move any further towards humanizing my cardboard heroes in the hobby. As a kid in the late 1980's and early 90's, I met both Bob Feller and Duke Snider at card shows in NC and got their autos. (For what it's worth, both of them were nice to me). But for some reason I was always drawn more to the cards and the memories / nostalgia evoked by the era and the pieces of history themselves than the actual players. Sure the players matter, if they didn't I'd be a lot wealthier now chasing down vintage commons than Mantle, Mays, and Clemente cards - but for me for whatever reason I never cared to get that close. I relish the stats and the on-field accomplishments, but realize on some level that they are human when not on the field and I guess it's the knowledge of that possible hearbreak there which kept me from getting any closer. Mantle was alive and doing card shows when I first got into the hobby, but I never pursued that - even back then there were plentiful stories about his ability to be a dick (or just drunken idiot) to everyone too. Like any kid in that era who had a subscription to Beckett - I worshiped the Mick as if he were still playing alongside my 80's heroes, and I can't imagine what that would have been like had I had a bad experience.

This kind of brings up another topic indirectly related to the nostalgia and why we collect - what details "do it for you" exactly? Not to get too personal, but what's behind that dopamine hit when you look at your favorite vintage cards? Is it the players and the type of characters they were? Or is it the era and the sense of time gone by - the kids that may have ripped your cards from their original wax or cello, and what all that must have been like? As a fan of the game first and foremost for me, it will always be about both - but increasingly I like to wonder and marvel about the era and history that surrounded the cards when they were new.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Frankly these kinds of stories are another great exmplar of why I never could get into autographs, or I guess move any further towards humanizing my cardboard heroes in the hobby. As a kid in the late 1980's and early 90's, I met both Bob Feller and Duke Snider at card shows in NC and got their autos. (For what it's worth, both of them were nice to me). But for some reason I was always drawn more to the cards and the memories / nostalgia evoked by the era and the pieces of history themselves than the actual players. Sure the players matter, if they didn't I'd be a lot wealthier now chasing down vintage commons than Mantle, Mays, and Clemente cards - but for me for whatever reason I never cared to get that close. I relish the stats and the on-field accomplishments, but realize on some level that they are human when not on the field and I guess it's the knowledge of that possible hearbreak there which kept me from getting any closer. Mantle was alive and doing card shows when I first got into the hobby, but I never pursued that - even back then there were plentiful stories about his ability to be a dick (or just drunken idiot) to everyone too. Like any kid in that era who had a subscription to Beckett - I worshiped the Mick as if he were still playing alongside my 80's heroes, and I can't imagine what that would have been like had I had a bad experience.

This kind of brings up another topic indirectly related to the nostalgia and why we collect - what details "do it for you" exactly? Not to get too personal, but what's behind that dopamine hit when you look at your favorite vintage cards? Is it the players and the type of characters they were? Or is it the era and the sense of time gone by - the kids that may have ripped your cards from their original wax or cello, and what all that must have been like? As a fan of the game first and foremost for me, it will always be about both - but increasingly I like to wonder and marvel about the era and history that surrounded the cards when they were new.

Well shoot, John, you just wrote out what I have been trying to verbalize on some level for a long time. When it gets right down to it, I don't believe I ever wanted to get that close either. Since I started this thread about Aaron and Mays I will use Willie as an example of this. I guess here and there I have heard stories about Mays' attitude, but somehow I have always managed to separate the cards themselves from the actual player and his personality. The cards, especially 50s cards, evoke feelings in me that I can't rationally explain. When I see those golden colors from 1955 Topps or the combined portrait and action pose of a 1956 Topps, I am just in awe--particularly when it is Aaron, Mays, Mantle, Clemente, etc. I am just a couple of years older than you so I know all about the 80s heroes. I enjoyed those guys a lot. However, the stars of the 50s and their cards are nearly mythical to me. Like you said, it is the nostalgia, how I can only imagine how it must have been. I never was an autograph seeker either. The cards themselves were somehow enough on their own. This probably sounds naive to those who had direct personal encounters, but it is what makes me tick.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[MikeGarcia]

..I've always liked the look of these......remind me to buy a new scanner...

..

[MarcosCards]

Originally Posted by jchollins
“...but what's behind that dopamine hit when you look at your favorite vintage cards?”

Oooh, I like the term dopamine hit to describe the unexplainable rush when looking at favorite vintage cards. I know that volumes have been written about this phenomena — on this forum and elsewhere. And, of course, the reaction is different and personal for each collector.

Fortunately, I have all the cards from my childhood collection (early 1960s — when Mays and Aaron were in their prime). Whenever I go through my cards, sweet memories of the lazy, carefree summer days of my childhood come flooding back. After a while, I realize my face kinda hurts from all the smiling. Oh to have access to a time machine — and the discretionary income that I now have.