Bigger Jerks Than Joey Belle in the Hall of Fame

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by packs

If you're citing events in Al Stump's book none of them hold any water. What are your sources for these moments?

Leerhsen's book, A Terrible Beauty. He puts in so much effort to dispel the notion that Cobb is racist and that Stump’s book exaggerated that he doesn’t realize he still paints a fairly aweful picture.

[darwinbulldog]

None of these discussions make any sense except in light of a supernatural belief in contracausal free will. Just sayin'.

[BruceinGa]

Another vote for Reggie Jackson!

[nolemmings]

sorry I'm late to the thread, but I always thought Albert Belle was a bigger jerk than Joey Belle.

[Paul S]

What we need is a sabremetric that compares jerks across eras.
(leaving it open-ended here - write your own below

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Leerhsen's book, A Terrible Beauty. He puts in so much effort to dispel the notion that Cobb is racist and that Stump’s book exaggerated that he doesn’t realize he still paints a fairly aweful picture.

He also claims that Cobb once got a home run on a bunt. He's not exactly credible.


Tim Hornbaker is the guy to read re:Cobb

[drcy]

Maybe he changed as he got old, but just read or listen to Glory of Their Times and you'll know that Cobb had a bad character/personality reputation with his contemporaries.

[packs]

In terms of Cobb's myth vs reality, it only takes a little bit of research to see for yourself that he was in no way the racist hate monger he's made out to be. For one, his great grandfather preached against slavery in the Confederate South during the Confederacy, second, his father was an advocate for the education of African Americans and other under-served communities and Cobb himself would go on to establish a fund for that very purpose, which still exists today. Lastly, here's a contemporary quote from Cobb in 1952, well before the Civil Rights era:

"The Negro should be accepted wholeheartedly, and not grudgingly," he said. "The Negro has the right to play professional baseball and whose [sic] to say he has not?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

In terms of Cobb's myth vs reality, it only takes a little bit of research to see for yourself that he was in no way the racist hate monger he's made out to be. For one, his great grandfather preached against slavery in the Confederate South during the Confederacy, second, his father was an advocate for the education of African Americans and other under-served communities and Cobb himself would go on to establish a fund for that very purpose, which still exists today. Lastly, here's a contemporary quote from Cobb in 1952, well before the Civil Rights era:

"The Negro should be accepted wholeheartedly, and not grudgingly," he said. "The Negro has the right to play professional baseball and whose [sic] to say he has not?"

Also I have read that there is no evidence that the bellhop he beat up -- a key piece of the racist claim -- was black.

[frankbmd]

Years ago I visited Royston, GA and met an old doctor there who was a close personal friend of Cobb in the forties and fifties. He only spoke highly of him and his contributions to the community, Cobb’s hometown.

He was the driver of the regional Cobb Health system, which included the hospital in Royston. The medical services available to all in the Cobb system were a legacy that he and the community cherished.

He supported the youth baseball in the community as well.

He profited from Coca Cola, but didn’t run away from Royston with his wealth.

[Leon]

There are certainly lots of different type stories about Cobb. Much of what has been taken for granted over the years doesn't jive with some first hand accounts. People are complicated. (Tim N said that ).

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Years ago I visited Royston, GA and met an old doctor there who was a close personal friend of Cobb in the forties and fifties. He only spoke highly of him and his contributions to the community, Cobb’s hometown.

He was the driver of the regional Cobb Health system, which included the hospital in Royston. The medical services available to all in the Cobb system were a legacy that he and the community cherished.

He supported the youth baseball in the community as well.

He profited from Coca Cola, but didn’t run away from Royston with his wealth.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by drcy

Maybe he changed as he got old, but just read or listen to Glory of Their Times and you'll know that Cobb had a bad character/personality reputation with his contemporaries.

According to some. But others said Cobb never spiked anyone intentionally unless they were blocking his path to the base, which Joe Wood, in defense of Cobb, said was just common sense.

Cobb did a lot of good things for people, that is not in dispute. As far as his sins, I have always believed Cobb deserves some slack, given his circumstance (his mother killing his father in what some said was murder.) Overall I think the good in Cobb outweighs the bad.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

There is a ton of revisionist history surrounding Cobb, As a historian you have to weigh first-hand accounts ahead of theory. Cobb was a very complicated person and not a real good person. The people that want to cleanse the image get very passionate about it but the first-hand accounts are not pleasant.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

There is a ton of revisionist history surrounding Cobb, As a historian you have to weigh first-hand accounts ahead of theory. Cobb was a very complicated person and not a real good person. The people that want to cleanse the image get very passionate about it but the first-hand accounts are not pleasant.

While first hand accounts are important, historians are also aware of bias. Sam Crawford hated Cobb, so can his stories about the man be taken at face value? How do you talk about people you don't like?

Side note, when Cobb died they found copies of a ton of letters he'd written to people lobbying for Crawford's induction into the HOF.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Years ago I visited Royston, GA and met an old doctor there who was a close personal friend of Cobb in the forties and fifties. He only spoke highly of him and his contributions to the community, Cobb’s hometown.

He was the driver of the regional Cobb Health system, which included the hospital in Royston. The medical services available to all in the Cobb system were a legacy that he and the community cherished.

He supported the youth baseball in the community as well.

He profited from Coca Cola, but didn’t run away from Royston with his wealth.

Originally Posted by Leon

There are certainly lots of different type stories about Cobb. Much of what has been taken for granted over the years doesn't jive with some first hand accounts. People are complicated. (Tim N said that ).

Originally Posted by Mark17

According to some. But others said Cobb never spiked anyone intentionally unless they were blocking his path to the base, which Joe Wood, in defense of Cobb, said was just common sense.

Cobb did a lot of good things for people, that is not in dispute. As far as his sins, I have always believed Cobb deserves some slack, given his circumstance (his mother killing his father in what some said was murder.) Overall I think the good in Cobb outweighs the bad.

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

There is a ton of revisionist history surrounding Cobb, As a historian you have to weigh first-hand accounts ahead of theory. Cobb was a very complicated person and not a real good person. The people that want to cleanse the image get very passionate about it but the first-hand accounts are not pleasant.

Originally Posted by packs

While first hand accounts are important, historians are also aware of bias. Sam Crawford hated Cobb, so can his stories about the man be taken at face value? How do you talk about people you don't like?

Side note, when Cobb died they found copies of a ton of letters he'd written to people lobbying for Crawford's induction into the HOF.

Interestingly I also met Al Stump and was less than impressed. Competitive ballplayers who consider base running a contact sport at any base stretch the rules perhaps and are considered "dirty" by some (Hello Manny (Machado)), but behavior inside the lines does not necessarily relate to their character outside the lines.

Albert "Joey" Belle gets votes in these threads for the hall for his career inside the lines, as does Pete Rose and the like. Where to draw the line for character outside the lines is the real question.

Few would suggest that Ty Cobb should be removed from the Hall of Fame. After all, where is the Belle Health System? Is there a Belle Hospital and Medical Center in Shreveport, Louisiana? I don't know. I only drove through Shreveport once without stopping in 1972 long before little Albert was conceived.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

There is a ton of revisionist history surrounding Cobb, As a historian you have to weigh first-hand accounts ahead of theory. Cobb was a very complicated person and not a real good person. The people that want to cleanse the image get very passionate about it but the first-hand accounts are not pleasant.

In modern, social media driven society, when it comes to judging people of the past, sanctimony is the order of the day. The irony is that people who claim to be "good", seem to go out of their way to try and find - and even publicize - only the bad in others, regardless of how truthful it is.