Players who fell off a cliff

[A2000]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm sitting on a minor nest egg if Joey ever DOES get elected:

Hey if Harold Baines can get in...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by A2000

Hey if Harold Baines can get in...

Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Albert Belle blows away Harold Baines. Look at his stats for the 1990s.

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

Belle's stats are due to injury though. He should have enough merit in what he did while he could play to get in. He was a much better hitter than Jim Rice or Andre Dawson, who are probably the most similar to him in terms of why they got in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oh I agree, especially given his unpopularity Belle will never get in, I was mostly just responding to the notion that a few good years qualified Maris somehow. But I do think if guys like Baines who were pretty good for a very long time are in, one needs to consider guys who were superstars for 6-7-8 years just didn't have much of a career beyond that. The Belles and Mattinglys of the world.

I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think there are some guys like Mattingly and Dale Murphy who can get in now that the Veteran's Committee is putting in the likes of Baines, Lee Smith and Morris. I just think that the Maris and Belle career numbers fall short. Longevity does matter and that is the only reason those 3 made it.

Belle .933 OPS to .815 for Murphy and almost as many HR. .830 for Mattingly.

I would not even think about considering Maris who at most had 4 top years, and really only 2.

[ooo-ribay]

Anyone (other than Bonds) who the Giants have extended lately.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

He only has 1726 hits. It is going to be hard to get elected to the HOF with that few. Maris is even worse with 1325. If those guys had played long enough to get 2000, I think they would both be in.

The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Originally Posted by Tabe

The rules say 10 years. Belle played 10 full plus 2 others. He had waaaaaaaaaay more great years than Sandy Koufax yet Koufax went right in, with no one caring about his short career. Belle is an absolute no-brainer HOFer.

[Eggoman]

Plus Belle was "VERY DIFFICULT" to like! It's NOT supposed to matter, but...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Johan and Gooden have fair cases - edge to Johan. Oswalt has none. Oswalt has no CY. Gooden and Johan each have 1 20 win season. All HOVG.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you support Gooden then on the pitching side? Santana? Maybe Oswalt?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?

[Peter_Spaeth]

1994. 36/101/.357/1.152 in just 106 games. I'd say that year he was the best player in baseball, and damn close to it quite a few other years, if this is somehow the test.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by packs

Albert's heights eclipsed awards. He played in the steroid era and was never under a steroid cloud. He finished 2nd or 3rd in MVP voting three years in a row. One of those years he finished second to Mo Vaughn, known purchaser of HGH and named in the Mitchel Report. Then he finished third behind A-rod (known cheater) and Juan Gonzalez (known cheater).

So you are talking about a guy who should have won at least 2 of the 3 MVP awards he nearly won and a guy who drove in 100 runs or more the last 9 years of his career.

What exactly did Jim Rice do to end up in the HOF that Albert Belle didn't?

Win an mvp.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

For a player with a short career to go in the hall it has to be spectacular. Sandy has 3 cy and an mvp to go with 3 ws rings. Joey has no MVP awards. No World Series. He was caught using a corked bat. He was a huge slugger and had a very nice career. I would agree that he should be strongly considered for the HOF. But I think Maris, Mattingly and Murphy belong first. They were all the best players in baseball at one point in their careers. Belle was not.

His surly disposition undoubtedly cost him MVP votes. The guy finished EIGHTH one year while hitting .328 with 49 homers and 152 RBI. Led the league in slugging, OPS, OPS+ and total bases. EIGHTH. Finished 2nd behind Mo Vaughn in 1995 despite: higher batting average (.317 vs .300), more homers (50 vs 39), same RBI (126), higher OBP (.401 vs .388), higher slugging (.690 vs .575), higher OPS (1.091 vs .963), higher WAR (7.0 vs 4.3).

Belle played 10 full seasons and parts of two more. AVERAGED 40 homers every 162 games. OPS+ of 144. Those are ridiculous, high-level, elite numbers.

Nope, he didn't win an MVP or World Series. But he outperformed guys who did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Even mentioning how many WS someone played in as a factor in their Hall-worthiness is absurd. How many did Ernie Banks play in? Stan Musial? Ted Williams for God's sake? On the other side of the ledger there are double digit mediocre guys on the 20s through 50s Yankees who probably played in 5+.