Did I just discover that the Topps Dice Game cards are from 1963 instead of 1961?

[frankhardy]

I don't want to go out on a limb and say this definitively....but I will ask the question......did I just discover that the 1961 Topps Dice Game cards are actually from 1963?

So....as many of you know, I am a Cardinals team set collector. Like most advanced collectors, I have the impossible Dice Game cards on my want list. Before this evening, my list included the Stan Musial and the Bill White. Of course, I will probably never own those 2 cards, but it is nice to dream, right?

This evening, I get a text from a fellow Cardinals collector asking if I had seen the current Mile High Auction with the Dice Game Bill White and Dick Groat. I told him, no, but that I would check them out. Then, I said that Groat was a Pirate in 1961. He sent me a picture of the Bill White and also the Dick Groat. I looked real close, and sure enough, Dick Groat was in a Pirates uniform....but....an "STL" was painted on his hat! Whoa! Groat didn't play for the Cardinals until 1963. So, I did a little research and discovered that Dick Groat was traded to the Cardinals on November 19, 1962.

To me, that would totally rule out these cards being from 1961. There is only a small window for them to be produced in 1962 (November 19th - December 31st). It looks to me that these cards were released in 1963. I have never heard anyone talk about this before. Am I off my rocker?

Here is the Mile High Auction -

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1961_T...-LOT62671.aspx

[swarmee]

#toppstradamus

[frankhardy]

Que up the Twilight Zone theme!

[4reals]

Anxious to see the responses on your question! The real question is...are you going to bid?

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[frankhardy]

Bid? Maybe. Win? Not a chance!

[cardinalcollector]

I think you are right on Shane. Groat is the only card in the set that helps date it. First pic I’ve seen of Groat.

[jason.1969]

That would explain what this member figured out in an earlier thread. See pic.

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[frankhardy]

Toppcat is Dave Hornish. Looks like he was already on it back in 2016. However, I think the Groat solidifies it.

[hcv123]

I believe Bob pointed out that many of the dice game cards have the same images as the small black and white shots on the 1960 Topps cards. I checked that the Mantle in fact does, but the Maz does not. The Groat appears to be the same except as the op pointed out the "Pirates" whited out and the logo on the hat changed. Not sure what it all means, but this sure is interesting.

[frankhardy]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I believe Bob pointed out that many of the dice game cards have the same images as the small black and white shots on the 1960 Topps cards. I checked that the Mantle in fact does, but the Maz does not. The Groat appears to be the same except as the op pointed out the "Pirates" whited out and the logo on the hat changed. Not sure what it all means, but this sure is interesting.

I went back and looked at the 2015/2016 thread. I saw where most of the 1960 Topps inset pictures matched up. Frank Robinson did not. I also saw where Dave suspected a 1962 or 1963 production because of the 1962 All Star game, but then Larry pointed out that Bill White and Tony Kubek did not make that team.

[hcv123]

I am having trouble accessing the MHCC site, but it would appear there would be little other explanation for Groat having a Cardinals logo on his cap than the Groat card was done in 1963.

The write up states that there are pen markings on some of the cards - what about the possibility they were originally printed in 1961 and then revisited in 62 or 63?

[sflayank]

1963 it is
good catch...i just looked
im surprised larry fritsch didnt catch. checklist came from his uncut sheets
16 players were in the 62 all star games
why kubek and white were included unknown
not only is P airbrushed but pirates across chest is airbrushed out

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by sflayank

1963 it is
good catch...i just looked
im surprised larry fritsch didnt catch. checklist came from his uncut sheets
16 players were in the 62 all star games
why kubek and white were included unknown
not only is P airbrushed but pirates across chest is airbrushed out

Kubek and White both had killer years in 1962 and should have made the AS team.

[brian1961]

In 1962, Bobby Richardson also had his career year at the plate, as well as his career-defining amazing catch of Willie McCovey's scorching blue dart that saved and ended the '62 World Series.

Furthermore, the inclusion of Don Drysdale came after his career-best 25-9. In '60 Big D was not much over .500.

---Brian Powell

[brian1961]

Going from memory, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, and Camilio Pasquel all had banner years in 1962, and were included in the Topps Dice Game.

Also, it may not be too important, but 1963 was the year after Stratematic Baseball had debuted their highly-successful and popular baseball board game that heavily involved the use of dice. Perhaps Topps decided its puny offering could not compete, OR, Stratematic got wind of it, and had a heated phone chat with the folks at Topps.

---Brian Powell

[jason.1969]

Olbermann just added the Siebern card as further corroboration.



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[Stuke1976]

I recently bought what looks like an old photo, 8x10", that is identical to the Dice Game picture of Mickey Mantle. It says Mickey Mantle New York Yankees Outfield in the bottom border and CopyArt in the lower right border. There is some faded unreadable words on the back in red ink. Is this related to the Dice game or Topps in any way?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Stuke1976

I recently bought what looks like an old photo, 8x10", that is identical to the Dice Game picture of Mickey Mantle. It says Mickey Mantle New York Yankees Outfield in the bottom border and CopyArt in the lower right border. There is some faded unreadable words on the back in red ink. Is this related to the Dice game or Topps in any way?

Probably not from the dice game, although it’s not uncommon to have the same photo as was used on cards. Even Topps used these same photos on other cards they produced. Naturally, if it’s an original Type 1 photo then it’s not worth nothing.

[Republicaninmass]

Guess the self proclaimed guru of 1961 dice game consultants didn't catch that

[toppcat]

This could be the photo service:

https://archive.metromod.net/viewer..../5145-11016756

[jpat]

I'm no expert, but your post made me curious. I looked on the Trading Card Data Base site, and they list the set as the "1963 Topps Dice Game".

[John1941]

Originally Posted by jpat

I'm no expert, but your post made me curious. I looked on the Trading Card Data Base site, and they list the set as the "1963 Topps Dice Game".

Looks like one of the top users, Vroomed (whom I beat in the finals of one of the TCDB fantasy leagues in 2022), fixed the issue date in December 2020.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by jpat

I'm no expert, but your post made me curious. I looked on the Trading Card Data Base site, and they list the set as the "1963 Topps Dice Game".

The OP first posted about this in early 2019.