UPDATED 5/16: BEWARE PAYPAL CHARGEBACKS! If you sell on eBay, read this...

[jb217676]

Doesn't the buyer need to provide proof to receive a refund, like a tracking number showing the card was returned to you? Why are you forced to give a refund if the card wasn't returned?
Jeff

[ngnichols]

Originally Posted by jb217676

Doesn't the buyer need to provide proof to receive a refund, like a tracking number showing the card was returned to you? Why are you forced to give a refund if the card wasn't returned?
Jeff

They can simply claim their bank card or credit card was stolen, account hacked, etc. and say they never made the purchase themselves and file a chargeback with their bank or credit card company. I had a similar situation happen to me about a year ago. Fortunately for me, it wasn't big ticket stuff and PayPal sided with me after I showed them previous eBay purchases of similar items from the buyer that were not charged back and seeing the tracking information I provided them with showing it was delivered to the exact address of the card-holder.

David, I am sorry to hear this happened to you. This flat out sucks man. I am just shocked that they are still doing this despite the clear-cut evidence you've provided them with. It's pretty obvious that if you haven't gotten any communication via eBay or E-Mail that this guy knew what he was doing and knows you know what's up. Definitely a BIG loop-hole and problem here for anyone on eBay or utilizing PayPal in conjunction with eBay to sell and take payments. Doesn't seem like there is much anyone can do until PayPal closes this loop-hole or eBay makes their payment system more attractive and doesn't box people in to only utilizing them for ever and ever.

I've never had any kind of significant problems with PayPal (Fingers crossed, knocks on wood) so any little minor problems I've encountered have been resolved pretty quickly and to my satisfaction. This is definitely a strange one and doesn't sound like it's going to end positively for David unfortunately.

[painthistorian]

Paypal is required to provide a confirmed address when transacting so if you shipped the card to that paypal confirmed address, and have the original shipping documentation, they cannot state that it is out of their hands since there is a seller protection clause...you will have to send a legal letter to paypal showing this transaction details from start to finish, we had an incident similar and won the case but it took 3 months ...it was not a baseball card but an expensive porcelain item and it was similar experience...

You can insist that paypal provides you with a provisional credit if you have a signature confirmation as over $750, that is the requirement....They can hide behind the 3rd party conduit crap but if you have signature confirmation, proof of usps delivery documentation, and e bay proof of delivery, then you have to contact their fraud department and report this buyer as fraudulent, include a scanned documentation legal letter from your attorney and ask for a provisional credit until their research department can prove otherwise.

[ngnichols]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

Paypal is required to provide a confirmed address when transacting so if you shipped the card to that paypal confirmed address, and have the original shipping documentation, they cannot state that it is out of their hands since there is a seller protection clause...you will have to send a legal letter to paypal showing this transaction details from start to finish, we had an incident similar and won the case but it took 3 months ...it was not a baseball card but an expensive porcelain item and it was similar experience...

You can insist that paypal provides you with a provisional credit if you have a signature confirmation as over $750, that is the requirement....They can hide behind the 3rd party conduit crap but if you have signature confirmation, proof of usps delivery documentation, and e bay proof of delivery, then you have to contact their fraud department and report this buyer as fraudulent, include a scanned documentation legal letter from your attorney and ask for a provisional credit until their research department can prove otherwise.

Obviously a lot of hoops to jump through, but that sounds like the only alternative at this point. Thanks for sharing that even though it sucks you had to go through all of that nonsense even though you did nothing wrong.

[Directly]

Years ago I posted a Japanese sword on Ebay.
A interested buyer from Australia wanted to purchase, but I tried to explain I didn't ship overseas--he persisted saying there would be no problems, I finally caved sold him the sword and shipped. About two weeks later he asked to return the sword, saying he unwrapped the binding on the handle and the tang didn't have any information inscribed on the metal tang handle.

I asked why he should expect to return for a refund after he literally took the sword apart, leaving me with just parts so to speak.

Anyway I received a notice from Paypal they would leave me a minus 800.00 negative balance which they did with no questions asked.

Although I did receive the sword back in pieces I resold to another buyer, this time a USA buyer-- the credit card co will usually side with their customers for any right or wrong disputes!

[Mark17]

If you talk to a lawyer, you might want to ask him about this potential scenario: Suppose the guy sends you back the card. In order for him to be able to prove he did return it, you would have to sign for it. But here's the danger... Suppose you get a heavily insured package from the guy, sign for it, walk out of the post office, get home, open the package, and inside is a recent, common card. He has all the documentation he needs to "prove" he returned it. You have no proof to the contrary.

So... if you do get a package from the guy, what to do? Open it at the post office with the postal workers as witness, and take pictures of you opening it, what's inside, with the witnesses, and so on? Or take the unopened package to your attorney and open it there, under his observation?

It would be good to know what an attorney would recommend in this scenario.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It would be good to know what an attorney would recommend in this scenario.

There are a lot of lawyers on this board. Maybe none who specifically practice in this area but it would be interesting to get their pov.

[Jobu]

I am very sorry to hear this. The crook knows that it isn't worth what you would have to pay a lawyer, or what it would take for you to appear in small claims court in his city. (I believe some small claims courts make you show up in person, you can't have a representative, so you get killed on travel costs. And even if you have a rep, then you are back to paying a lawyer ---- unless there is a very kind local Net54 member willing to appear on your behalf, which, now that I say it, is a possibility if the rules allow for it).

I am also not sure that this is mail fraud. The package was received. It was never sent back, but nothing ever happened at USPS. The guy just lied to his credit card company and completely left USPS out of it. This appears to be eBay and bank fraud, not mail fraud.

So, it seems the way to prevent this in the future would be to 1) never keep a Paypal balance - including immediate transfer of all sale proceeds to one's bank, and 2) have a single account number at the bank which is tied to Paypal and where the funds land, but then immediately transfer them to another account -- probably one at another bank to be extra safe. The problem here is then you have a negative Paypal balance, which means they will pay themselves back with your next transactions, and probably send the account to collections if you try to close it or let it go inactive. So I guess there really is no way to cover one's ass here.

Do you have card insurance? You might be able to file a claim with them.

Also, Larry replied as I typed this. I think pursuing it as he suggests is wise. And if you do have insurance, send them the same documentation about a potential claim just so that they have everything and you don't later find out that you waited too long to notify them of a loss if going through the Paypal process really might take three or more months.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I am very sorry to hear this. The crook knows that it isn't worth what you would have to pay a lawyer, or what it would take for you to appear in small claims court in his city. (I believe some small claims courts make you show up in person, you can't have a representative, so you get killed on travel costs. And even if you have a rep, then you are back to paying a lawyer ---- unless there is a very kind local Net54 member willing to appear on your behalf, which, now that I say it, is a possibility if the rules allow for it).

I am also not sure that this is mail fraud. The package was received. It was never sent back, but nothing ever happened at USPS. The guy just lied to his credit card company and completely left USPS out of it. This appears to be eBay and bank fraud, not mail fraud.

So, it seems the way to prevent this in the future would be to 1) never keep a Paypal balance - including immediate transfer of all sale proceeds to one's bank, and 2) have a single account number at the bank which is tied to Paypal and where the funds land, but then immediately transfer them to another account -- probably one at another bank to be extra safe. The problem here is then you have a negative Paypal balance, which means they will pay themselves back with your next transactions, and probably send the account to collections if you try to close it or let it go inactive. So I guess there really is no way to cover one's ass here.

Do you have card insurance? You might be able to file a claim with them.

Also, Larry replied as I typed this. I think pursuing it as he suggests is wise. And if you do have insurance, send them the same documentation about a potential claim just so that they have everything and you don't later find out that you waited too long to notify them of a loss if going through the Paypal process really might take three or more months.

If you buy your own .com you can make as many email addresses as you want and tie a new paypal account to your new email. They would not do much about it after that. You can not close a paypal account with a negative balance.

If you want to go one step further you could have an llc claim no profits, tie your paypal account to the business so its not on your social security number then close the llc.

Your liability dies if you close the llc and paypal is left with a negative balance and no legal entity to sue.

Enjoy.

[BlueDevil89]

I had a similar situation a few months ago. After the card had been purchased and delivered nearly six months ealier, the buyer came back and filed a claim with their credit card stating they never received the card. PayPal in turn froze the money in my account pending an investigation.

Good thing I saved all the paperwork. Had to go to the USPS and get proof of delivery from the post office.

After conducting the "full investigation", PayPal released the funds back to me.

If I didn't still have the tracking number on the shipment, PayPal would have forced me to issue a full refund.

Lots of scammers out there. Beware.