Hey, pennant guys

[ooo-ribay]

I really enjoyed your write up on WGN pennants, Kyle. I was also amazed by the craftsmanship shown on your companion blog, pennantfactory.

I was happy to learn the maker of three Giants pennants I own. These pennants have always "bugged" me and, in a way, they still do. Why......?

I began collecting in 1993, finding most of my stuff through SCD. I started with ebay in 1998. In the first 5-7 years of collecting, I had never seen any of the Giants WGN pennants. Then, all of the sudden, they showed up regularly on ebay and always seemed to be in perfect shape. It has never made sense to me that these 40 year old (at the time) pennants always seemed to be pristine in both color and condition. "Warehouse find"? For what it's worth, the polychromatic version with 1958 seems to be the most common. I wonder if the two dated examples could be knockoffs of the other one, especially since your research puts these pennants in the mid-to-late 1960's.

[Domer05]

Rob: Glad you enjoyed it

So, my impression of WGN was that, outside of Chicago teams, they did not really make MLB pennants until the mid to late 1960s. They made a few Cubs and White Sox pennants before then, but ... I wasn't aware of any dated pennants from non-local teams as early as 1958. Good find!

Most of the non-local MLB pennants I showed in my post appeared to be from the latter half of the 1960s. Note that the Cardinals one features a "Busch Memorial Stadium" (1966+) and the Braves one features the Atlanta Braves (1966+). The '64 Yankees one was the earliest dated one I could find for a non-Chicago team. I just assumed they all were made within a 4-5 year window.

Apparently not. I guess they adopted this style in the late 1950s and continued using it throughout the 60s..?

The Cincinnati Redlegs "Big Red Machine" one was a bit puzzling. The earliest reference to "Big Red Machine" I could find seems to have come in 1969; however, most historians would consider this team's reign to have spanned the 1970-79 range. By 1969, however, MLB had cracked down on unlicensed novelties, so I can't imagine WGN made this as late as 1970 or thereafter, but who knows....

The other interesting thing is that I didn't think the Reds were still using the name "Redlegs" by the late 1960s or 70s. Perhaps they used "Redlegs" over "Reds" to skirt copyright laws that MLB had begun enforcing? I am curious as to PerezFan's take on this.

Finally, you make an interesting point about the above-average condition these WGN pennants are consistently found in. I thought the same as you: that these were primarily unsold stock found in a warehouse recently. But, I'm starting to think they were just really well made.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Rob,
I can’t speak to the others, but the dated 1958 pennant was part of a large pennant find from a California antique dealer. I bought many of the one offs from this dealer along with quite a few of the 1958 version. This “find” also included many Rose Bowl pennants that you see around from the same era. I found that the bottom one is the most difficult for me to run across. BTW, there were also some matching dated Dodgers ones in this find as well. In regards to condition, they were all unsold stock from back in the day and NrMt condition.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Rob,
I can’t speak to the others, but the dated 1958 pennant was part of a large pennant find from a California antique dealer. I bought many of the one offs from this dealer along with quite a few of the 1958 version. This “find” also included many Rose Bowl pennants that you see around from the same era. I found that the bottom one is the most difficult for me to run across. BTW, there were also some matching dated Dodgers ones in this find as well. In regards to condition, they were all unsold stock from back in the day and NrMt condition.

Great info, Jason. Of the three I posted, the black one is the stiffest (you can see the shiny polyester strands from the back) and has the Day-Glo paint Kyle referenced. I think that one was definitely done by WGN. I think the other (softer felt) ones may have been reproduced by someone else and dated, after the fact. Make sense?

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Great info, Jason. Of the three I posted, the black one is the stiffest (you can see the shiny polyester strands from the back) and has the Day-Glo paint Kyle referenced. I think that one was definitely done by WGN. I think the other (softer felt) ones may have been reproduced by someone else and dated, after the fact. Make sense?

I understand, but I think the dated Giants version is actually from 1958. Generally speaking (I have purchased a number of old stock pennant deals) many of these pennants that are year specific or team specific to an event, rarely sell through leaving extras they are unable to sell. Years later we appreciate it, but at the time it’s dead stock.

[thetahat]

I always thought these WGN pennants were Ad Flags .... I personally have my doubts about the 1950 ASG pennant, it doesn’t look like a match in style ... is there another reason to believe it is from that maker?

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

I always thought these WGN pennants were Ad Flags .... I personally have my doubts about the 1950 ASG pennant, it doesn’t look like a match in style ... is there another reason to believe it is from that maker?

Greg: Your point is well taken. I too considered this to be by ADFLAG. And, of the several dozen pennants I used in my WGN post, this '50 ASG pennant was one I was on the fence over.

Here's my rationale for WGN:

(1) Colors. WGN seemed to embrace the transition to two-color and even polychrome graphics well in advance of ADFLAG. The Notre Dame pennants I showcased illustrate this transition, and I can confirm that this transition took place around 1950.

(2) Artwork. I covered this earlier in my AFLAG post, but this Comiskey Park graphic was used by both ADFLAG and WGN; however, when ADFLAG used it, they hid their "ADFLAG" name in the drawing, whereas WGN never did this. This Comiskey Park rendition lacks any such mark.

(3) Stars. WGN's art department was obsessed with stars! Here, we have baseball players silhouetted by a star, much like WGN's football design that Rob G. (and I) admire so much. I can't say that ADFLAG's art department shared this affinity for stars.

(4) Special event pennants. Finally, and this was the deal breaker for me, WGN was consistently big on special events, and this continued throughout the 1950s, 60s, and 70s. And an All-star game being played in their backyard would qualify as such an event. Nine years later, when the '59 World Series came to Chicago, WGN made pennants for both the hometown Sox and the visiting Dodgers. This trend continued for the Sugar, Orange, and Cotton Bowls; and, of course, the Super Bowl. ADFLAG, in contrast, ignored most of these special events. Sure, they did make NL and AL Champions pennants; but, they typically didn't reference the event itself by name, e.g., "1968 World Series" which suggests their league championship pennants were not made specifically for sale at the event.

Remember, WGN wasn't just a pennant maker, they were also a concessionaire. I'm fairly certain Mr. Newbould and his grand children were outside Comiskey selling this pennant in the summer of 1950. If they were willing to do that in South Bend, there's no reason to think they wouldn't try it at Comiskey. To my knowledge, ADFLAG was always a wholesaler, not a retailer.

Like I said, this wasn't an easy call for me. But, my opinion is this was WGN's work.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

The Cincinnati Redlegs "Big Red Machine" one was a bit puzzling. The earliest reference to "Big Red Machine" I could find seems to have come in 1969; however, most historians would consider this team's reign to have spanned the 1970-79 range. By 1969, however, MLB had cracked down on unlicensed novelties, so I can't imagine WGN made this as late as 1970 or thereafter, but who knows....

The other interesting thing is that I didn't think the Reds were still using the name "Redlegs" by the late 1960s or 70s. Perhaps they used "Redlegs" over "Reds" to skirt copyright laws that MLB had begun enforcing? I am curious as to PerezFan's take on this.

Great read Kyle! Surprised to learn it was WGN making one of my favorite football styles...The DayGlo football player surrounded by smaller players in stars. I love that one. Seems they made a lot more college pennants in that style than pro. I rarely come across a pro team but a new college version will show up every few months. And not just midwest schools. Army, Navy, Syracuse, Kentucky have all turned up recently.

I was wondering about that Redlegs pennant too. It's an oddity. Big Red Machine became popular in the 1970s. Not sure why they made the Redlegs version because there is a much more common version of that pennant that says Reds.

Anyone have any insight?