Another T206 Old Mill Blue Back??

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That last pic is great Ron. It sure does look polar bear(ish) and pretty much proves it’s not piedmont blue.

Now I am no expert (not even close) at when certain backs are issued, so this is a genuine question - were polar bears printed with the same subjects as old mill? Does it matter? I guess my question is, as Ted suggested with Piedmont, is it plausible, based on print groups, that they could have run polar bears and then switched over to old mills without changing ink?

Interesting question. As far as I know, there were no Polar Bear backs printed in Print Group 1 but I don't know where the cut-off date Print Group 1 Old Mills were printed up to and where Polar Bears started.

[tedzan]

Ron and Ryan

I considered the POLAR BEAR darker ink (vs the PIEDMONT blue). However, the timeline does not favor the POLAR BEAR ink.

As you know, the Powell & Walsh are 150/350 series subjects which were in OLD MILL print runs circa late 1909 / early 1910.
The first POLAR BEAR print runs were circa Summer 1910.

Great work there, Ron.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Ronnie73]

Another thought I'll throw out there... Maybe the Blue Old Mill is from a T59 Flags ink batch or even the birds and fish cards. I have a few thousand T59's and a few hundred of the birds and fish. Maybe I need to compare to some of them also.

[CW]

I am far from a T206 expert, but I've seen some Piedmont back strikes that are a fairly dark blue, similar to this Old Mill in question.

[Ronnie73]

I had a difficult time finding the Piedmont I scanned. Most of my Piedmonts are the Factory 42's with the light blue ink and the handful of Piedmont 350's were of the Elite 11 but I agree, there are Piedmonts out there that are darker than the one I scanned. I'll have to search around to see if I have a Piedmont 150 to compare.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I like Ron's Powell more than the Walsh to be honest. It could just be that his scans are so much nicer than the Walsh images I've seen, but it just looks better. I wish you the best with it no matter what happens.

[rommesc]

Agree with doing a side-by-side comparison with a few Piedmont 150 cards. To my eyes, the Piedmont blue ink color differs in the 150 series(darkest), 350 series, and also the 460 series.

[Pat R]

There are considerable variations in ink color even in the same series.

There is a light, medium and dark variation in this Polar bear lot.
polar bear Color variation.jpg


A light and Dark PD350 scanned at the same time on my scanner.

PD color variation 2.jpg

PD350 color variation.jpg

[tmw2ward]

What about the Young portrait? There are basically two different green backgrounds?

[steve B]

The inks were mixed by hand, even into the 1980's and probably beyond. So there's always some variance. Newer printing relies more on straight CMYK, and it can because the halftone can be much finer.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

I do not disagree it is possible. It might even be probable but it is all just conjecture. My only point was that it was written as fact and it shouldn’t be. Next thing you know you have an auction house using it in a description so on and so forth.

He then proceeded to bold font exclamation point some holiday inn type whack ass credentials in a pit bull fight type manner about how he is more right than me like a child. It is not the first time I have seen this behavior. Hey. If he wants to measure weiners with other people to make people think he has won an argument that is fine. When it happens to me I will not tolerate it and I will point it out for what it is.

I can see that.


Ted and I disagree on some T206 stuff, sort of agree on others. I take a really technical approach which isn't always as useful. Ted has the advantage of having handled … Thousands? maybe more than 10,000 having been a collector and dealer for along time. I've gotten used to stuff being stated as absolute. It's not optimal for me, but works better for some. The failing I have is couching stuff I'm quite sure of in less than 100% certain terms.


It is true that we can't always really know just how something happened. But knowing how it usually happened, we can eliminate the very unlikely and focus on the more or most likely.

[Luke]

Great detective work Ron! I saw this video on youtube yesterday and had no idea it was your card. Knowing it's yours and not some random person trying to make a few bucks lends a ton of credibility to it. And it's hard to argue with the scans.

[RedsFan1941]

"I've gotten used to stuff being stated as absolute."

unwise

[Rhotchkiss]

Qualifying this post (again) with fact that I have a mere fraction of the T206 knowledge many others have on this board, I have some thoughts. However, first let my qualify my comments -- I want this card to be real, and if it is, I would love to own it!

Old Mills and Polar Bears had different print groups, which makes an ink-switch error unlikely. Thus, even though the blue in the Powell Old Mill looks "PBish", it is unlikely a case of failing to switch the ink after Polar Bears into Old Mills.

Contrast that with the Brown Old Mill. The Brown OM, I believe, has the same print group as the Brown Hindu -- the southern league. This makes the forgetting-to-switch-the-ink (from Hindu to OM) more (indeed very) plausible in the case of brown old mills. Then take the facts that (i) the brown in the hindu is very close to the brown in brown OM, (ii) all brown OMs are hand-cut, printers scrap, which never made it into cigarette packs - meaning the printer likely realized the mistake immediately cut up the cards, fixed the ink and moved on, and (iii) there are 10-20 known examples of Brown OMs and rarely a duplicate, meaning that likely only 1-2 sheets made it through the printing process. Based on these facts, the theory looks extremely sound that Brown OMs are real and were the product of a printing/ink error between Hindu and Old Mill on Southern Leaguers.

Can we assemble a similar chain here between the blue old mill and some other blue-backed T206? It must be Piedmont, because we seem to have ruled out Polar Bear and it cant be UZIT (and tolstoi and Carolina Brights are black, no?). Were Powell and Walsh in the same print group and is it likely, or at least possible, that they were on the same sheet? Why was the Walsh blue old mill not hand cut, like the Brown Old Mills? What is the story of the Brown Lenox, which also were not hand cut, and we can use them as anecdotal evidence in this case?

Obviously having a TPG look hard at the card to inspect its authenticity is key (and I think SGC is totally the way to go here over PSA). But TPGs make mistakes all the time (PSA more so with T206 than SGC), and so it would be great to come up with a plausible theory behind how blue old mills could even exist in the first place.

We know that a purported T206 Evers Yellow Sky Brown Hindu is fake. We know thus because we know he was printed in the Red Hindu and there are no fronts with both red and brown hindus. So we know for a fact that I really sound-looking, "i held it in my hand and it looked real", Evers Yellow Sky Brown Hindu is a fake, because that card does not come in brown hindu. In the case of the Blue Old Mills, can we put together a plausible case that explains how it is possible that both Walsh and Powell could have a blue old mill back?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Luke

Great detective work Ron! I saw this video on youtube yesterday and had no idea it was your card. Knowing it's yours and not some random person trying to make a few bucks lends a ton of credibility to it. And it's hard to argue with the scans.

Thanks Luke!!

[Luke]

Ryan,

Yes, Powell and Walsh are both 150-350 Series subjects and it's very plausible they were on the same sheet. When I get a chance I'll look at Pat's Plate Scratch research to see if he has either or both players placed on sheets.

Also, the back of the Blue Old Mill Walsh shares multiple little print flaws with other Walsh Old Mills. Some people have said that the Walsh could be re-backed with a blue reprint. That is not the case. I'm not saying I know the Walsh is legit, just that it isn't as simple as a re-back.

[Al C.risafulli]

Those USB microscope scans are really, really cool.

It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that the card is authentic. We've seen every manner of freaky print error on the fronts of T206s over the years.

A second blue back certainly makes me feel better about the first one.

-Al

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Question about the Kleinow you posted. The back lower right print seems to have a blue tone to it compared to the rest of the back. It could be my eye sight.

Also, I thought I heard that you could not actually make a black that they are all really dark blues to make black. Is this true?

The other question i have is about Old Mill backs that look brown but are just an off black. Is it possible this could be the case with these OMs?

Lee

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Luke

Ryan,

Yes, Powell and Walsh are both 150-350 Series subjects and it's very plausible they were on the same sheet. When I get a chance I'll look at Pat's Plate Scratch research to see if he has either or both players placed on sheets.

Also, the back of the Blue Old Mill Walsh shares multiple little print flaws with other Walsh Old Mills. Some people have said that the Walsh could be re-backed with a blue reprint. That is not the case. I'm not saying I know the Walsh is legit, just that it isn't as simple as a re-back.

Powell and Walsh both have plate scratches but they were on separate sheets but I think it's fair to assume that they could have been on the
same Old Mill sheet because the 150/350 subjects were printed with Old Mill backs during the 350 printing and the sheet layouts changed.

I have Walsh on the left corner of sheet 2b and Ames has the same scratch and is on the left corner of 2a.

0 Ames-Walsh.jpg

0 Sheet 2A.jpg 0 Sheet 2B.jpg


I have Powell in the left of middle of Sheet 1a and Goode has the same scratch
and is in the left of middle of 1b.

Powell-Goode.jpg

0 Sheet 1A.jpg 0 Sheet 1B.jpg

[MichelaiTorres83]

I will say they certianly look good. It is possible and even probable but the coincidences are way too convenient and I am very highly skeptical still.

It is not like this beat up card has to be looked at under a microscope to see it is blue.

This would be a whole new back given they are factory cut cards. Give pause and soak that concept in for a moment. It is not just a little blue. It is really blue.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Sterling Sports Auctions

Question about the Kleinow you posted. The back lower right print seems to have a blue tone to it compared to the rest of the back. It could be my eye sight.

Also, I thought I heard that you could not actually make a black that they are all really dark blues to make black. Is this true?

The other question i have is about Old Mill backs that look brown but are just an off black. Is it possible this could be the case with these OMs?

Lee

I know that depending on the angle you look at the picture on some monitors will change the color a bit. Viewing it under the microscope shows no sign of blue. The blue Old Mill does show small black pigment spots everywhere and the same on Polar Bears. If Polar Bears were printed in Print Group 1, it would practically be a open and closed case.

[Ronnie73]

So here are my latest pictures. The first is under the microscope of a Piedmont 150 and the Blue Old Mill. The second is a scan of 5 cards at 1200dpi. From left to right: Blue Old Mill, Piedmont 150, Polar Bear, Piedmont 350, and Old Mill Black. The Piedmont 150 has a few microscopic black ink pigment areas just like the Blue Old Mill. So what do you guys think? Seems to match up with the Piedmont 150 better than the Polar Bear.

[tedzan]

Ron

Comparing the blue ink with a PIEDMONT 150 back's ink was the smart thing to do. Your analysis is spot on, Ron.

This confirms what I suggested earlier in this game. And, in my opinion it is an authentic T206.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Ron and Ryan

I considered the POLAR BEAR darker ink (vs the PIEDMONT blue). However, the timeline does not favor the POLAR BEAR ink.

As you know, the Powell & Walsh are 150/350 series subjects which were in OLD MILL print runs circa late 1909 / early 1910.
The first POLAR BEAR print runs were circa Summer 1910.

Great work there, Ron.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ullmandds]

agreed...matches with the p150 the best! incredible photography!

[Pat R]

Personally I wouldn't consider it a slam dunk that it's PD150 ink there
are darker PD350's than the one Ronnie posted. In my opinion if it
is a case of using the wrong ink I personally think there is more evidence
that it would have been during the PD350 printing.

The two multi-strike scraps being one of the things to consider they have
150/350 subjects on the backs with EPDG and Brown Old Mill printed
over top of PD350.


http://i.imgur.com/vOj6n19.gif

pCviCcv[1].jpg

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Sterling Sports Auctions

Question about the Kleinow you posted. The back lower right print seems to have a blue tone to it compared to the rest of the back. It could be my eye sight.

Also, I thought I heard that you could not actually make a black that they are all really dark blues to make black. Is this true?

The other question i have is about Old Mill backs that look brown but are just an off black. Is it possible this could be the case with these OMs?

Lee

Closer to the reverse. Black is incredibly easy to make. It's generally carbon black or lampblack, both Carbon in different forms. Mix with a carrier or some hardening oil, and you've got black ink.

Blue is marginally tougher. Early blues were often ground Lapis Lazuli in the same carrier. Later ones were a chemical dye. 1910 ish, it's a coin toss as to which one was used.
My chemistry set had one experiment that made a chemical blue that could be changed to black and changed back to blue. It was a long time ago, and I don't recall what it was made of, but it was in a kids chemistry set so it wasn't difficult.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

"I've gotten used to stuff being stated as absolute."

unwise

That's true, I meant it mostly in the context of how each person presents something. And just because it's presented as fact doesn't mean I automatically go with it.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's true, I meant it mostly in the context of how each person presents something. And just because it's presented as fact doesn't mean I automatically go with it.

You may not but others do. Especially people with no or less knowledge. As time moves on newcomers are less capable of getting the context required to distinguish between the two.

You then are left with historical factoids and stuff people copy and paste around cementing a hypothesis or myth.

[Leon]

That is pretty cool looking. The card back in question is blue, no doubt. I am in the authentic camp.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Personally I wouldn't consider it a slam dunk that it's PD150 ink there
are darker PD350's than the one Ronnie posted. In my opinion if it
is a case of using the wrong ink I personally think there is more evidence
that it would have been during the PD350 printing.

The two multi-strike scraps being one of the things to consider they have
150/350 subjects on the backs with EPDG and Brown Old Mill printed
over top of PD350.


http://i.imgur.com/vOj6n19.gif

Attachment 342819

[tedzan]

Whether it was after a PIEDMONT 150 run or a PIEDMONT 350 run where this alleged printer's mistake regarding the OLD MILL occurred, it's
something we will probably never know. However I think Ron has done sufficient analysis of this Powell card which provides us a high degree
of probability that this card is an authentic T206.

Furthermore, I can imagine that Dave (the original owner of the Walsh blue OLD MILL) feels vindicated with this new find. I have known Dave
since the 1980's (we've done many large-lot T206 deals over the years), and I recall all the flak he had to dodge over that Walsh card.

Who knows where (or when) the next blue OLD MILL T206 will surface ?
Only the "Monster" knows ! ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Ronnie73]

This has so far been a great post and I hope it continues. It's true, nobody knows how the card was made. Even with all the proof in front of us, it's so hard to say it's 100% true. I keep forgetting that we are talking about T206's and anything is possible with them. I was 100% sure it was Polar Bear ink but then I put next to a Piedmont 150 and now I'm leaning more in that direction. As far as all the different Piedmont 150 or 350 shades of blue, all it take's is one shade to match for it to be a possibility. Now that would be a funny movie title for this card... 150 or 350 Shades of Blue.

As far as the scrap 150's with 350's on them, what if that's how they used scrap sheets. You print one side, proof it, make you adjustment and print again. But you wouldn't send that same sheet into the press. It would still be wet and make at offset mess of everything. You'd put it in a pile and use another sheet. Maybe the next day or next month you test print on the other side of those scrap sheets. That's how you would do it for the least amount of waste. Maybe they really cracked down on the waste at the job. Another unknown.

[Jdrahota1]

Where did you find or buy the card from?

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Jdrahota1

Where did you find or buy the card from?

I bought the card in 2015 but not sure exactly where but I didn't notice the blue ink until 2 years later in 2017 when searching for EPDG backs for print marks.