Mariano

Aquarian Sports Cards · #1 01-26-2019, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Here's an interesting analysis of closers.

https://dizzydeane.wordpress.com/201...ated-position/

Great article, but really it's not that involved. If you like WAR look at WAR for an elite reliever. it's about 1/3 to 1/4 the WAR of a great Starter or position player. Pretty simple.

frankbmd · #2 01-26-2019, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

From my experience, if you go to the non-sport board and start a poll "Who is Mariano Rivera?" They don't know. They've never heard of 'im. He's a local celeb like Joe Mauer.

I mentioned the ongoing Mariano debate here to an old friend via email yesterday.

His response

�Wasn�t he one of the three tenors?�

Peter_Spaeth · #3 01-26-2019, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I mentioned the ongoing Mariano debate here to an old friend via email yesterday.

His response

“Wasn’t he one of the three tenors?”

You clearly hang with culturally astute folks.
Then again, if one of them got tired at the end of a concert....

GaryPassamonte · #4 01-26-2019, 09:27 AM

Scott- I wasn't speaking specifically about Rivera's numbers as a starter, but he sure was converted from starter to reliever quickly. At the time, I would think that conversion had more to do with his future prospects as a starter than his future prospects as a closer. He didn't exactly shine as a starter. I know this is a small sample size, but it backs up what I've said.
I do believe Rivera is the best closer of all time. I just don't believe the best pitchers in baseball are converted to closers. They remain starters.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #5 01-26-2019, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Scott- I wasn't speaking specifically about Rivera's numbers as a starter, but he sure was converted from starter to reliever quickly. At the time, I would think that conversion had more to do with his future prospects as a starter than his future prospects as a closer. He didn't exactly shine as a starter. I know this is a small sample size, but it backs up what I've said.
I do believe Rivera is the best closer of all time. I just don't believe the best pitchers in baseball are converted to closers. They remain starters.

I posted that in support of your point. I agree with you.

GaryPassamonte · #6 01-26-2019, 11:49 AM

I get it, Scott.

frankbmd · #7 01-26-2019, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You clearly hang with culturally astute folks.
Then again, if one of them got tired at the end of a concert....

After an exhaustive check, I can assure you that the three tenors never closed a concert or concert this way

�Mr Sandman, bring me a dream
Make him the cutest that I�ve ever seen
Give him two lips like roses and clover
Then tell him his lonesome nights are over.�

But the Chordettes did.

GaryPassamonte · #8 01-26-2019, 09:02 AM

Scott- Beyond the metrics, I found it interesting that closers turned starters had no success. How many highly successful starters become closers? Closers are generally high velocity or one pitch specialists that have shown difficulty being successful when pitching a number of innings in one game. Otherwise, they would be starters.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #9 01-26-2019, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Scott- Beyond the metrics, I found it interesting that closers turned starters had no success. How many highly successful starters become closers? Closers are generally high velocity or one pitch specialists that have shown difficulty being successful when pitching a number of innings in one game. Otherwise, they would be starters.

Stats ERA G IP HR BB SO WHIP SO/9 SO/BB
as Starter 5.94 10 50.0 8 20 38 1.680 6.8 1.90

He also didn't even make the majors until he was 25, so FAR from an elite starting prospect.

oldjudge · #10 01-28-2019, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Stats ERA G IP HR BB SO WHIP SO/9 SO/BB
as Starter 5.94 10 50.0 8 20 38 1.680 6.8 1.90

He also didn't even make the majors until he was 25, so FAR from an elite starting prospect.

For the first six years of Koufax�s career (six years, HALF OF HIS CAREER) his average year was 6-7, ERA-4.10, WHIP-1.428, �so FAR from an elite starting prospect�. At that point he wasn�t even good enough to turn into a closer. Maybe you should focus on the totality of Mariano�s work.

#11 01-28-2019, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

For the first six years of Koufax�s career (six years, HALF OF HIS CAREER) his average year was 6-7, ERA-4.10, WHIP-1.428, �so FAR from an elite starting prospect�. At that point he wasn�t even good enough to turn into a closer. Maybe you should focus on the totality of Mariano�s work.

Agreed, the 'totality" of Mariano's work gets him in the HOF with today's game. He is not in the top 40 greatest pitchers.

frankbmd · #12 01-28-2019, 08:39 AM

Glad to see that we all agree now about Mariano.

Maybe we should move on now.

I’ll present the

Hall of Fame case in support of Bennie Bengough

1. He sat on the same bench with Babe Ruth.

2. He is the #1 Card in his most popular contemporary baseball card set.

3. He played for the New York Yankees.

4. Several people who live close to the Hudson River consider him the best catcher of all time.

The Veterans Committee really dropped the ball on this one.

the 'stache · #13 01-31-2019, 03:29 AM

Let me ask you all this. You have a great pitching prospect. What would you rather have him turn out to be:

1.) A dominant starter.

2.) A dominant closer.

Calling Rivera a "failed starter" might be a tad misleading if he only got a small amount of starts at the Major League level. But I ask myself, "why?" Did the Yankees have such a dominant starting rotation that they could afford to put Rivera in the bullpen?

If he's one of the greatest pitchers ever, wouldn't he be more valuable to the Yankees as a starter? You know he's going to get the ball 32+ times a year. A closer, you have no guarantee he'll even pitch. If the rotation and/or middle relievers are not doing well, Mariano is sitting in the pen watching the game.

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