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#601
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Is it possible that those two brands were successful and large enough thAt they didn't need additional promotion?
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#602
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T206 Reference/Reflections...Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards?
Hi Rich
LUCKY STRIKE cigarettes were not that popular a brand until the 1920's. One of the most popular cigarette brands circa 1909 - 1911 was PIEDMONT. And, especially in the South and Southeast. And, the CHESTERFIELD brand was introduced in 1912. TED Z . |
#603
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Interesting. Usually everything hinges on marketing and the need to drive sales. I'm really surprised, then, that these two brands never hosted cards.
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#604
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T206 Reference.....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, let's get your inputs
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)]. Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series. One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363 meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca). In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle "error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints. So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here. And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________ INDEX Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters. Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards) Post #5......350/460 series backs identified Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" Post #96.....UZIT checklist Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ? Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one ! Post #580.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #581 >> 590.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #591 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #605 >> 610.....the TOLSTOI story Posts #611 >> 620.....the TOLSTOI story Posts #621 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors. However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your question(s).... tedzan11@comcast.net In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s). TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 02-05-2019 at 07:05 PM. |
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
When American Lithographic started printing the 350 Series T206's, they introduced these T-brands....AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CAROLINA BRIGHTS, CYCLE, DRUM, EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and TOLSTOI . TOLSTOI print runs started circa 1910. Continued to the end of the T206 press runs (Spring 1911). To date, 255 subjects have been confirmed. TOLSTOI cards are not tough. However, certain 350-only subjects printed early in 1910 must have been short-printed, as they are very tough to find. TOLSTOI checklist (255 subjects) confirmed. They are listed here according to their respective T206 series. 350-only Series...................146 subjects Abstein Anderson Arellanes Atz Barbeau Barger Barry (A's) Bender (trees) Bescher (portrait) Blackburne Bliss Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burns Bush Byrne Campbell Carrigan Casey Chappelle Charles Clark Clymer Collins (Milwaukee) Collins (A's) Cree Cross Davidson Delehanty (Louisville) Demmitt (New York American) Dineen Doolan (fielding) Dorner Downey (fielding) Downs Joe Doyle (NY) Dubuc Jack Dunn Joe Dunn Dygert Easterly Engle Evans Ferguson Fiene (throwing) Fletcher Ganzel Gasper Graham (St Louis) Gray Grimshaw Groom Hartsell Hayden Hinchman (Toledo) Hoblitzell Hoffman (Providence) Hoffman (St Louis AL) Hofman Howard (Chicago NL) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Jones (Detroit) Kelley Killian (portrait) Kisinger Kleinow (New York-catching) Knight (portrait) Knight (bat) Krause (portrait) Krause (pitching) Kroh LaPorte Lattimore Lavender Lennox Livingstone Lord Maddox Maloney Marquard (portrait) Mattern McAleese McBride McCormick McElveen McGinnity McIntyre (Detroit) McLean Merritt Milan Miller (Pittsburg) Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mitchell (Toronto) Moeller Moran (Chicago NL) Mowrey Murray (bat) Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) Nattress Nichols (bat) Oakes O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Perring Pfeister (seated) Phillippe Purtell Puttman Quillen Quinn Randall Rhoades (arm extended) Rhoades (hands at chest) Rhodes Ritter Rossman Rudolph Schmidt (portrait) Schreck Scott Shannon Sharpe Slagle Smith (Chicago, white cap) Smith (Buffalo) Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Starr Stanage Stephens Strang Summers Taylor Thomas Unglaub Warhop Willett Wilson Zimmerman 350/460 series...................57 subjects Ames (hands over head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Harry Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Kleinow (Boston) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake, St. Louis (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifeld (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (Chicago-pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (throwing) Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) CYoung (glove) 460-only Series......…..........46 subjects Abbaticchio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bergen (catching) Bescher (hands over head) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (hands over head) Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (bat) Chase (trophy) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Duffy Larry Doyle (portrait) Ford Frill Gandil Geyer Herzog (Boston) Howell (hand at waist} Hummel Lake, St. Louis (ball) Latham Marquard (pitching) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Merkle (throwing) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Needham Oldring (batting) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Schulte (back view) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) H. Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wheat Wiltse (portrait-cap) Six Super-Prints Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) Mathewson (dark cap) This is a work in progress, more stuff will be forthcoming. TED Z . |
#606
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
ATC Factory #30 (in NYC) was a major producer of various cigarette brands. Besides SWEET CAPORAL, some of these tobacco brands were
CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, and TOLSTOI. Also early 1911, a new T-brand named UZIT. By the Spring of 1911, American Lithographic (ALC) had printed the last of their T206's (350/460 and 460-only series cards). ALC embarked on producing their Gold-Bordered cards.....T205 BB, and various and sundry Non-Sports sets (T42, T43, T56, T57, T69, T80, T99, etc.). Furthermore, Imagine opening a LENOX or UZIT (or perhaps a TOLSTOI) cigarette pack in the Spring of 1911 and finding a T206 card and a T80 card in it. ** In my wild imagination, I expect that some day we will find a Cobb (or two) with a T80 back on it. Hey, this may seem improbable; however, consider that the printer installed the T80 LENOX printing plates in the press instead of the T206 LENOX plates. After all, these cards were printed concurrently. Anyway Cobb has been quoted as saying...…. " Baseball is like War ! " So guys, check-out these unique Cobb cards .........…….. ……………………………………...….…... . . ………….and, here he is wielding his weapon of "war" ** Note….ALC ledger sheet (dated Feb 1911) exists which instructs ATC employees at Factory #30 to insert both a T206 card and a T80 card in a LENOX (or UZIT) cigarette pack. TED Z . |
#607
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So far I only own 2 Tolstoi cards:
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#608
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Quote:
Bliss Casey Knight (portrait Knight (bat) Merritt O'neil Pfeister (seated) the following missing from your list are confirmed Beckley Donovan (throwing) Knabe Street (portrait) Sweeney, Bill I also think Bender (with trees) might be an error on the confirmed lists but I'm not sure. There is only one in the PSA pop reports and none in the SGC reports. I've never seen one and I think it might be a label or data entry error on a no trees PSA example. Last edited by Pat R; 01-27-2019 at 11:56 AM. |
#609
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Love me some Tolstois!
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ThatT206Life.com |
#610
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Nice Luke! those are some tough Tolstoi's.
Here's a few more that don't show up often. Lennox Tolstoi.jpgLennox Tolstoi Back.jpg Latham Tolstoi.jpgLatham Tolstoi Back.jpg Starr Tolstoi SGC.jpgStarr Tolstoi Back.jpg Cree Tolstoi.jpgCree Tolstoi Back.jpg |
#611
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
Quote:
Hi Pat 1st....the ones you pointed out which I omitted..... If you check-out my recent thread (shown below), you will see that I did list 3 of the subjects as confirmed TOLSTOI cards. I was combining data from several TOLSTOI lists in my records, and I inadvertently left out part of one. My bad ! Excerpt from my "Interesting NO-PRINT group of T206 Carolina Brights - EPDG - Old Mill - Polar Bear" thread...….. Quote:
2nd....regarding: Bliss Casey Knight (portrait Knight (bat) Merritt O'Neil Pfeister (seated) I will double-check the data on my lists of TOLSTOI cards to see why I included any, or all 7 of these as "confirmed" TOLSTOI cards. 3rd....Regarding the Bender (trees) with TOLSTOI, I vaguely recall having seen one many years ago. I checked the pop reports (and like you said) I noticed PSA lists one graded. So I figured my recollection was valid. Thanks for your inputs. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#612
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Quote:
Ted, I saw that most of these were on your other lists so I knew you just forgot to put them on this list I was just pointing them out so you could update this list. I'm still a little skeptical about the Bender. There are a few single known example Tolstoi's but Bender is the only HOF and we have seen other errant confirmations due to a pop error. if you look at the other 350 only HOF pop numbers it seems odd that there isn't a recorded sale or scan. Combined pop #'s of the other HOF 350 only Tolstoi's Beckley - 17 Bresnahan - 12 Collins, Eddie - 6 Collins, Jimmy - 12 Huggins (hands at mouth) - 12 Huggins (portrait) - 6 Kelley - 3 Marquard (Port) - 4 *SGC has 9 in their pop report that doesn't specify pitching or portrait. McGinnity - 6 Speaker - 11 |
#613
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Quote:
rest must be fairly recent. Here's another low pop Tolstoi. Barry Tolstoi.jpg Barry Tolstoi Back.jpg |
#614
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Updated TOLSTOI list...… TOLSTOI checklist (253 subjects) confirmed. They are listed here according to their respective T206 series. 350-only Series...................144 subjects Abstein Anderson Arellanes Atz Barbeau Barger Barry (A's) Beckley Bender (trees) Bescher (portrait) Blackburne Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burns Bush Byrne Campbell Carrigan Chappelle Charles Clark Clymer Collins (Milwaukee) Collins (A's) Cree Cross Davidson Delehanty (Louisville) Demmitt (New York American) Dineen Doolan (fielding) Donovan (throwing) Dorner Downey (fielding) Downs Joe Doyle (NY) Dubuc Jack Dunn Joe Dunn Dygert Easterly Engle Evans Ferguson Fiene (throwing) Fletcher Ganzel Gasper Graham (St Louis) Gray Grimshaw Groom Hartsell Hayden Hinchman (Toledo) Hoblitzell Hoffman (Providence) Hoffman (St Louis AL) Hofman Howard (Chicago NL) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Jones (Detroit) Kelley Killian (portrait) Kisinger Kleinow (New York-catching) Knabe Krause (portrait) Krause (pitching) Kroh LaPorte Lattimore Lavender Lennox Livingstone Lord Maddox Maloney Marquard (portrait) Mattern McAleese McBride McCormick McElveen McGinnity McIntyre (Detroit) McLean Milan Miller (Pittsburg) Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mitchell (Toronto) Moeller Moran (Chicago NL) Mowrey Murray (bat) Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) Nattress Nichols (bat) Oakes O'Brien Paskert Perring Phillippe Purtell Puttman Quillen Quinn Randall Rhoades (arm extended) Rhoades (hands at chest) Rhodes Ritter Rossman Rudolph Schmidt (portrait) Schreck Scott Shannon Sharpe Slagle Smith (Chicago, white cap) Smith (Buffalo) Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Starr Stanage Stephens Strang Street (portrait) Summers Sweeney (Boston NL) Taylor Thomas Unglaub Warhop Willett Wilson Zimmerman 350/460 series...................57 subjects Ames (hands over head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Harry Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Kleinow (Boston) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake, St. Louis (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifeld (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (Chicago-pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (throwing) Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) CYoung (glove) 460-only Series......…..........46 subjects Abbaticchio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bergen (catching) Bescher (hands over head) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (hands over head) Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (bat) Chase (trophy) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Duffy Larry Doyle (portrait) Ford Frill Gandil Geyer Herzog (Boston) Howell (hand at waist} Hummel Lake, St. Louis (ball) Latham Marquard (pitching) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Merkle (throwing) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Needham Oldring (batting) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (bat) Schulte (back view) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) H. Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wheat Wiltse (portrait-cap) Six Super-Prints Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) Mathewson (dark cap) This is a work in progress.....if you have a TOLSTOI card that is not listed here, please chime in.....Thanks. TED Z . |
#615
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Here are a couple of my low population cards.
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 Last edited by Ronnie73; 01-11-2020 at 03:39 AM. |
#616
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
My research indicates that initial TOLSTOI print runs (circa early 1910) appear to coincide with early 1910 press runs of the 350 series. And, what is evident (based on pop report data) is that they many of these cards were short-printed relative to subsequent T206 series (350/460 series and 460-only series) TOLSTOI print runs. For example......this simulated arrangement of the 48 subjects in the 1910 COUPON set were also printed with TOLSTOI backs. Approx. 67 % of these guys are quite tough to find with TOLSTOI backs. Becker & Marshall have yet to be confirmed with a TOLSTOI back. But then, it is only recently that Joe Dunn, Claude Rossman, and Ira Thomas have been found with TOLSTOI backs. So, I expect that Becker and Marshall will be eventually found with TOLSTOI backs. 1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects Circa early 1910 TOLSTOI group Becker * Bender (trees) Byrne Campbell Chance (yellow portrait) ** Charles Chase (blue portrait) ** Chase (dark cap) ** Cobb (red portrait) ** Cree Donovan (throwing) Doolan (fielding) Dubuc Joe Dunn (Brooklyn) Engle Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) ** Fletcher Hartsel Hoffman (St Louis AL) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Killian (portrait) Knabe LaPorte Lennox Marquard (portrait) Marshall * Mathewson (bark cap) ** McBride McElveen McIntyre (Detroit) Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mowrey Myers (batting) Myers (fielding) Paskert Rhoades (hands at chest) Rossman Schmidt (portrait) Starr Street (portrait) Summers Sweeney (Boston NL) Thomas Willett Wilson * denotes not yet confirmed with TOLSTOI back. ** denotes super-print which has a considerably higher TOLSTOI population, since these subjects were also included in the 350/460 series print runs. TED Z . |
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My research indicates that initial TOLSTOI print runs (circa early 1910) appear to coincide with early 1910 press runs of the 350 series. And, what is evident (based on pop
report data) is that they many of these cards were short-printed relative to subsequent T206 series (350/460 series and 460-only series) TOLSTOI print runs. For example......this simulated arrangement of the 48 subjects in the 1910 COUPON set were also printed with TOLSTOI backs. Approx. 67 % of these guys are quite tough to find with TOLSTOI backs. Becker & Marshall have yet to be confirmed with a TOLSTOI back. But then, it is only recently that Joe Dunn, Claude Rossman, and Ira Thomas have been found with TOLSTOI backs. So, I expect that Becker and Marshall will be eventually found with TOLSTOI backs. TED Z .[/QUOTE] I confirmed these along with Fiene throwing on t206resource in the past 1+ years when I found scans of them while doing research on the scarcity of the 350 only subjects with Tolstoi backs all of them sold at different times. The Dunn came up for sale on ebay in March 2018 Fiene sold on ebay in July 2015 Rossman in June 2015 and the Thomas sold on ebay in May 2011. |
#618
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
Quote:
I figured it may be you that found these 4 subjects with TOLSTOI backs this past year. But, I wasn't certain. Great research, guy. TED Z . |
#619
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wanted to chime in that i just came across this thread and your research about tolstois and yall are AWESOME. i started collecting tolstois only about 6-8 months ago (have around 35 or so graded so far) and have been looking for more and more info. great data and great work gentlemen!
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#620
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Figured we needed a Tolstoi Matty posted. Always wondered why they made Tolstoi and Piedmont so similar in design.
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#621
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T206 REFERENCE....Reflections......the TOLSTOI story....and show us your cards
Quote:
Good question, Dean. The TOLSTOI brand was an early entry when the print runs of the 350 series subjects began. My guess is the same artist that designed the PIEDMONT backs also did the TOLSTOI back. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#622
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T206 Reference / Reflections, Theory's, etc.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT I'm celebrating my 40th year since I read Bill Heitman's T206 book titled "THE MONSTER".....that started me on this glorious adventure which has become an obsession. But, "obsessions" can be a good thing. Especially, when I think of all the great friends I have met all these years in this great hobby Talkin' T206's (and, N162's, T205's, E90's, 1910 COUPON's, GOUDEY's, DIAMOND STARS, PLAY BALL's, LEAF's, BOWMAN's, TOPPS). I would like to express my sincerest appreciation to all of you on this forum. And to all of the collectors and dealers (many of whom have become life-long friends) which I have met since my first Willow Grove Show in March 1981. This forthcoming weekend marks my 100+ Philly Show in which I will be set-up at. Looking forward to seeing some of you (booth # 412). TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 02-26-2019 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#623
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T206 Reference / Reflections, Theory's, etc.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's
A good number of Net54er's dropped over to visit with Dan and me this past weekend at the Philly Show. We had a great time talking BB and BB cards with them.
Made some nice deals (selling & trading). Many of them traveled a good distance (Boston, New York State, North Carolina, Virginia, etc.) despite the snow & rain. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 03-07-2019 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The CYCLE 460 cards depict players in the 350/460 series and the 460-only series, which comprise a total of 109 subjects. These cards were issued circa Fall/Winter 1910. The CYCLE 460 cards were not equally printed. There are some considerably more difficult to find than others. I'll post a breakdown of the tougher ones vs the easier ones in a forthcoming post. I have to do some searching for all my data on the relative scarcity of these T206's with CYCLE 460 backs. If I recall correctly, Lee Behrens has completed this 109 card sub-set. I'm curious if anyone else on this forum has completed (or near to completing) the CYCLE 460 sub-set ? In any event, let's have a show-n-tell of your CYCLE 460 cards. CYCLE 460 cards do not get the recognition that most tougher T206 backs do; nonetheless, they can be scarce. 350/460 Series....................63 subjects Ames (hands over head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Cobb (bat off) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Davis (A's) Donlin (bat) Doolan (batting) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (batting) L. Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Evers (bat-yellow sky) Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (hands at chest) Jordan (batting) Joss (pitching) Kleinow (Boston) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) Mathewson (dark cap) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Sweeney (fielding) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (bat) Willis (throwing) Wiltse (pitching) CYoung (glove) . 460-only Series....................46 confirmed cards Abbaticcio (blue sleeve) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bergen (catching) Bescher (arms over head) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (arms up) Camnitz (arms over head) Chance (batting) Chase (trophy) Crandall (cap) Devore Doyle (portrait) Duffy Ford Frill Gandil Geyer Herzog (Boston) Howell (hands at waist) Hummel Lake (ball-St Louis) Latham Marquard (follow thru) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Merkle (throwing) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Needham Oldring (batting) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schaefer (Washington) Schlei (portrait) Schlei (batting) Schulte (back view) Seymour (portrait) Sheckard (glove) Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wheat Wiltse (portrait-cap) TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 03-10-2019 at 04:04 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#625
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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
As noted in my last post, certain T206's with CYCLE 460 backs are much tougher to find than others. In my opinion, CYCLE 460 cards should be ranked scarcer than they are. For example....Russ Ford is a subject in the Exclusive 12 ** group. This group of T206's are easier to find with red HINDU backs than with the CYCLE 460 backs. I have been doing a run on each of these 12 guys. Trust me, their CYCLE 460 cards are very tough. The UZIT cards of the Exclusive 12 subjects are almost impossible to find. The CYCLE 460 cards are not that scarce; however, they are a very real challenge. My McGraw CYCLE 460 (see post #624) is a fairly nice-looking card. This Russ Ford is a rough one, but I am happy to get these CYCLE's any way I can find them. . ** See Post #35 in this thread for more info regarding the Exclusive 12 group. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 03-08-2019 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#626
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Ted,
Love this post about one of my favorite backs. I agree that it's undervalued and underappreciated. Here are my 3 favorite Cycle 460s! |
#627
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The Cycle 460 is very underrated difficult; like this Lajoie, which is downright impossible.
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#628
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I too agree that they should be higher on the difficult scale. I haven't been following the Group of 12 cards in a few years but at one point, it was a focus of my T206 collecting for a few months. I managed to find Crandall, Duffy, and Sheckard out of the 12. I admit, I haven't focused my collecting on Cycle 460's at all but have 25 different in my collection. Here is my lowest combined (PSA + SGC) population card of 2 total.
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 |
#629
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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Nice CYCLE 460 cards.....Jay, Ryan, and Ron.....thanks for posting them. Here's my favorite CYCLE 460 from my Donlin back run. . . TED Z . |
#630
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Ted, that back is about as clear and centered as you see'em
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#631
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Ted,
I am currently at 99 with 10 left to finish off the subset. Slow progress at this point but seem to knock one off here and there. The set definitely has some toughies. Lee Behrens 320-219-1372
__________________
Tired of Ebay or looking for a place to sell your cards, let SterlingSportsAuctions.com do the work for you, monthly auctions. Last edited by Sterling Sports Auctions; 03-09-2019 at 10:42 PM. |
#632
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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards
Quote:
I know how that goes, I started my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run about the same time you started your CYCLE 460 run. And, I still need a couple of guys to complete this 74-card run. Good luck in finding those last 10 cards. TED Z . |
#633
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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Also, I am trying to do a CYCLE 460 run with the six Super-Prints. I have (or had) a Matty with a CYCLE 460 back, but I cannot find this card. I've seen a couple of Cobb's with the CYCLE 460 back. But so far their cost way "out-of-sight". I'm a patient dude, I'll wait for the right Cobb. Furthermore, the two Hal Chase cards are impossible to find. If anyone here has a blue Chase with a CYCLE 460 back to offer....I am a buyer. . TED Z . |
#634
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I've been searching for the Chase cards also. They don't ever seem to show up. Maybe I'm always looking in the wrong place. I only have the Johnny Evers, which seems to be the most common for showing up. I remember very early on, I thought there was an American Beauty 460 Chase Blue Portrait along with the other 5 Super Prints but then the checklists proved I was wrong.
__________________
Ron - Uncle Nacki T206 Master Monster Front/Back Set Collector - www.youtube.com/unclenacki T206 Basic "The Monster" Set 514/524 T206 Advanced "Master Monster" Front/Back Set ????/5258 COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Old Mill Southern Leagues - Black Ink 48/48 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 Full Color "No Prints" 28/28 NEAR COMPLETE T206 BACK SUBSETS Polar Bear 245/250 Sovereign 460 50/52 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 649 Overprint 31/34 Piedmont 350 "Elite 11" 9/11 |
#635
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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 460 checklist.....and show us your cards
Quote:
Hi Ron Back in 2006, when I started my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) run, my research indicated that the 6 super-prints were definitely not printed with the AB 460 (nor the UZIT) backs. This may seem strange, but I certainly welcomed that fact. No need to go on a "wild goose" Chase (excuse the pun) TED Z . |
#636
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T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
Theoretical thinking in years gone by, it was thought that there could be any where from 6000 to 10,000+ cards that would comprise a T206 "Master Set". However, in the past 12 years we have gained a significant understanding of which T206 cards were printed and which were not. Resulting in approx. 5300 front/back permutations that we know were normally issued **. Thanks to David Hall....who essentially has completed a T206 Master set, we now have a fairly accurate number of how many different T206's were issued in cigarette packs during the Spring/Summer of 1909 to the Spring of 1911. Reviewing his list of T206's, his current total number of cards is 5238. There are about a dozen T206's which have been confirmed which David still needs to complete this set. Your inputs on this subject will be greatly appreciated. ** Note….. There are approx. 100+ more T206's that were printed, but not issued in cigarette packs (i.e., brown LENOX, brown OLD MILL, and SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 cards of the 350/460 series subjects). These anomalies will be covered in the next post(s) here....so stay tuned. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 03-13-2019 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Added info. |
#637
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To get overly technical, Brown Old Mills were not distributed in packs, but Brown Lenox seem to have been.
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#638
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T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
Quote:
Hi Sean The brown LENOX cards may have been issued in LENOX cigarette packs, but I am not certain that this is true. And, I say this since a limited number of 350/460 series cards have (so far) surfaced with the brown LENOX backs. Namely, the subjects I refer to as Group B. The brown LENOX cards which have been confirmed are from Group B (none from Group A) of the 350/460 series subjects. Check-out this link..... The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Furthermore, 6 brown LENOX cards have been confirmed from the 460-only series. All of which suggests these brown LENOX cards may have been cut from an uncut sheet. I think more research is required to determine if these cards were in cigarette packs. TED Z . |
#639
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Ted, is there a list of the cards that David already has or that he needs?
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#640
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T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
Sean David provided me a list of his entire Master set about a year ago. He probably has added some cards to his set since then. Since you seem to be interested in brown LENOX cards, here is a list of the ones in his set (these cards are not included in the total tally of his Master set in the above Post #636)...... 350/460 series Bender (no Trees) Bradley (bat) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) Jordan (bat) Lajoie (bat) Lake (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifield (bat) Manning (pitching) McQuillan (bat) Overall (yellow sky) Pfeister (throwing) F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Willetts Willis (bat) 460-only series Chase (trophy) Latham Marquard (follow thru) Merkle (throwing Schlei (portrait) Wiltse (portrait-cap) TED Z . |
#641
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Ted, does David have a Merkle throwing in his set? I thought that my card was a one of one.
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#642
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T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
Quote:
Sean A brown LENOX is on his list. If I recall correctly, your brown LENOX is PSA graded, correct ? Well, I checked out the PSA pop report data, and NO data is listed for any LENOX Merkle cards. Much less a brown LENOX (or two). Very, very strange ! ? SGC pop report indicates seven LENOX Merkle's (however, it does not differentiate whether they are black or brown). TED Z . |
#643
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Quote:
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#644
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Sean, because your brown Lenox is not on PSA’s pop report, it’s definitely not a brown Lenox, and you don’t need two black Lenox, and I think you should give it to me
Side note - what is the plural of Lenox? |
#645
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I believe that would be Lenoxen.
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER. GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES 274/1000 Monster Number Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024. Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served. If you want fries with your order, just speak up. Thank you all. Now nearly PQ. |
#646
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T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
Quote:
Sean I don't understand it, either. Especially since SGC indicates that seven LENOX were graded by SGC. TED Z . |
#647
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Doc, it's actually Lenoxii - where did you get your medical degree?!? By coincidence, it's also the generic drug that cures erectile dysfunction.
Actually, PSA has 9 Black Lenoxii Merkle cards in their pop reports. |
#648
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Quote:
Thanx for correcting me. I have that exact PSA pop data link; however, it shows "0's". You figure it, I cannot ? TED Z . |
#649
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One of the PSA 1s is my Brown, it just shows up as a Lenox in the pop reports. And one of the SGC Lenox is the card that I crossed to PSA.
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#650
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T206 Reference, Reflections......The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement....check-it-out
Quote:
Sean I understand that the earlier brown LENOX cards were not identified by PSA as brown. I am visiting my Daughter and Grandson in Maine this week. And, when I return home I will try to contact David Hall and ask him if the brown LENOX card on his list is one which he has in his collection. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 03-18-2019 at 12:24 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
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