Mariano

[packs]

A benefit isn't really a benefit if you can't take advantage of it. Like I said, that argument unfairly discounts what he did on the field. He was on the stage and he dominated it. Not just anyone was going to do that, only Mariano Rivera could. That kind of greatness transcends any one team. You can rest assured he would have been the same pitcher no matter what team he was on.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by packs

A benefit isn't really a benefit if you can't take advantage of it. Like I said, that argument unfairly discounts what he did on the field. He was on the stage and he dominated it. Not just anyone was going to do that, only Mariano Rivera could. That kind of greatness transcends any one team. You can rest assured he would have been the same pitcher no matter what team he was on.

As a long-suffering Reds fan, I just cannot buy into that. If a lifelong Red, he would have somehow blown more saves (and had far fewer save opportunities). And he probably would've gotten some career-altering injury early in his career.

I believe that being a Yankee, and playing in that market at that time contributed immensely to his unanimous selection.

[ALR-bishop]

But are saves a "stupid" stat ?

[AndrewJerome]

HOF votes finally are public information. I think this is the first year (or maybe the second?) that votes are made public. Voters can't hide behind their votes anymore. I believe the number of people voting has also decreased by quite a bit since this change was made. Perhaps this is because old school voters (who refused to vote for anyone on the first ballot etc.) have stopped voting since they don't want their votes made public?

Anyway, all of this is a big reason for elite players getting near 100% and now at 100% for Mariano. Now a non-vote actually his repercussions, including a social media fire storm from angry fans. We can expect elite players to get near 100% from here on out. As it should be in my opinion. What reason would there be for not voting for a slam dunk HOFer?

[Throttlesteer]

For the record, WAR is a very useful stat but it isn't perfect. Relievers certainly aren't highly valued when considering the bigger picture. It can be argued back and forth about whether saves are overrated or if a reliever is or isn't on par with a starter. The fact is, relievers are a key piece of today's game and the stats don't always tell the whole story. I'm definitely not a Yankees fan, but Mariano was something special. The fact that he's 277th all-time in WAR (Hoffman being buried in the 500's) doesn't mean that I would take 276 of the players above him.

As far as the unanimous part goes, I could care less. I would like to believe that there's some purity to how these awards and honors are determined. But, we all know there are politics, biases, etc...with every one of them. The Heisman Trophy is a great example.

[packs]

You guys are entitled to your opinions but people keep bringing up Rivera's saves record and personally I think for a player like him the record didn't factor all that much into anybody's opinion of him. He was simply the greatest pitcher of all time and the only pitcher I'd ever want on the mound against any player you want to put up against him in a game I had to win.

[nolemmings]

Greatest closer? Most certainly. Greatest pitcher? No. Tossing 15-25 pitches three times a week does not the greatest pitcher make.

Saves are the factor that puts him in his special class. Give him the same stats other than saves and he obviously misses the HOF-- how many middle relievers are in Cooperstown? Unhittable in the 6th and 7th? Great, what else you got?

I'm a Mariano fan, so I begrudge him nothing--feel free to give him all the accolades as a player and as a human being. But for him or any closer to even enter a game, others on his team must have already succeeded, and I just do not believe the 9th inning should be exalted to such heights that getting those three outs--even almost automatically--qualifies you as the greatest pitcher.

[oldjudge]

Todd-If closing is that easy why do the top closers make almost $20 million a year, while middle relievers make a lot less? Why not close by committee and save money? Team have tried it and it doesn’t work.

[Touch'EmAll]

Looking at his stats - most impressive indeed. However, one stat I noticed is his wins/losses. Yeah, I know W/L are debatable how important as a reliever, still he had 82 wins and 60 losses. Curious as to the general take on that stat of .577 win percentage. The W/L percentage seems to be low considering he entered games primarily either ahead or tied.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by packs

You guys are entitled to your opinions but people keep bringing up Rivera's saves record and personally I think for a player like him the record didn't factor all that much into anybody's opinion of him. He was simply the greatest pitcher of all time and the only pitcher I'd ever want on the mound against any player you want to put up against him in a game I had to win.

What?? Greatest pitcher of all time? You have got to be kidding.....This is a relief pitcher for crying out loud.....

[packs]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

What?? Greatest pitcher of all time? You have got to be kidding.....This is a relief pitcher for crying out loud.....

You say that like winning championships doesn't matter. A "relief pitcher" who held all opponents to an ERA under 1 over 140 innings in games that mattered the most. I would venture to guess that no one on the Yankees saw Rivera as a "relief pitcher".

People love advanced stats so here's an advanced stat for you. Rivera leads all pitchers all time in ERA +. Pedro Martinez holds the single season record for starting pitchers with an ERA + of 291 in 2000. Rivera eclipses 291 twice during his career and his ERA + of 205 is over 50 points higher than Pedro Martinez's 154, which leads all starting pitchers.

So you tell me how good Rivera was.