Mariano

[Vintageclout]

Let’s put the “save stat” in total perspective....great post WWII starters like Gibson, Marichal, Koufax, Seaver, Palmer, Hunter, Ford, Jenkins, etc. in their prime completed at least 50% (very conservative I might add) or better of their wins so they got BOTH the win and the save in those complete games! That just about ends the conversation about trying to ever compare a great relief pitcher to a great starter.

[oldjudge]

Obviously, you don't mean they got the save. That aside, this is a new era where it is rare for any pitcher to complete a game. Those were all great pitchers, but none was as head and shoulders above his competition as Mariano. Ultimately, the term starting pitcher may disappear; we will just have pitchers that throw three innings and those who throw one or less. When that happens and all pitchers are short stint pitchers it will become even more apparent how great Mariano was.

John-To say Mariano is no better than the Sparky Lyles and Ecks of the world would be the second biggest mistake I have ever seen, right after passing on a Taylor Shafer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least in theory, all innings are equal, and all runs scored against you count equally. Rivera averaged 78 innings per 162. He simply cannot be as valuable as guys who give you 200+ dominant innings.

[Throttlesteer]

It's a different game now. Mariano absolutely deserves it. I also supported Hoffman, since hes probably the second best closer and pitched for a much less talented Padres team.

[oldjudge]

What modern pitcher pitched as well as Mariano, regular season and post season, and threw more innings?

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

What modern pitcher pitched as well as Mariano, regular season and post season, and threw more innings?

Jay - are you actually implying that Mariano can be compared to Top 10 all-time modern day pitchers like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, etc., who throttled lineups for 7+ innings per game virtually their entire careers? This is getting beyond silly. Please don’t compare a pitcher who only threw roughly 20-25% of the innings (mostly one inning appearances mind you) tallied by these dominating starters. And, remember that Mariano was a failed starting pitcher, only converted to a relief pitcher because of his recurring issues of being consistently successful over an extended number of innings in a single game. Pitching against the same hitters 3/4 times in a game with dominating success is no simple task, and clearly “light years” tougher than recording 3 outs. I’m not trying to diminish Mariano’s success. As you know, I am a HUGE Yankee fan and worship Rivera who was easily the best all-time performer at his craft. However, his craft doesn’t even come close to measuring up against the task of effectively pitching 7-9 innings per game and roughly 240 innings (give or take) per season.

I do agree with your assessment that the game will continue to change whereby many games will be split with several 2/3 inning pitchers followed by the 1 inning closer. Sad to say, it’s become a game of “specialists”, with Tampa Bay leading the way with this innovative philosophy.

[tothrk]

I personally think the “save” and guys who pitch one inning a few times each week are overrated. Rivera was clearly excellent at pitching one inning. I do know this for sure: If I was drafting tomorrow, and knowing exactly how their careers would turn out, I would draft Maddux ahead of Rivera every time.

[Eric72]

I’m happy for Mariano. However, the fact that he was the very first player to be unanimously voted into the Hall is unreal. Never once, in all these years, has someone gotten 100% of the votes. Yet, somehow Mariano Rivera (a relief pitcher) accomplishes this astounding feat.

Absolutely stunning.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I’m happy for Mariano. However, the fact that he was the very first player to be unanimously voted into the Hall is unreal. Never once, in all these years, has someone gotten 100% of the votes. Yet, somehow Mariano Rivera (a relief pitcher) accomplishes this astounding feat.

Absolutely stunning.

So true but you have to understand that for virtually the longest time, there would always be a handful of baseball writer HOF voters that made it “their” rule NEVER to vote for first ballot candidates. For whatever stupid reason they made this stance, it made it impossible to be unanimously voted in. Additionally, my assumption is that some of the voting sportswriters possibly had a grievance with a particular player on the ballot (once again for whatever reason), leading to the voter omitting them from a respective vote. With Mariano being the consummate professional and portraying unparalled class throughout his magnificent career, he obviously did not piss off many sportswriters, if any at all. Also, it is highly likely that the handful of previous “pig-headed” non-first ballot voters have either been phased out or changed their stance. That said, I strongly believe that Derek Jeter will be the 2nd unanimous Cooperstown Inductee.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I’m happy for Mariano. However, the fact that he was the very first player to be unanimously voted into the Hall is unreal. Never once, in all these years, has someone gotten 100% of the votes. Yet, somehow Mariano Rivera (a relief pitcher) accomplishes this astounding feat.

Absolutely stunning.

The fact that so many others who were deserving of this honor first but did not receive it is the ridiculous part. I am surprised a voter or two didn't leave him off the ballot just because he was a relief pitcher. I agree he should have not been the first unanimous choice, but he definitely belongs in the HOF.