Mariano

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Greatest closet ever....absolutely! Incredible Class....the best! Greatest pitcher ever...NOT A SNOWBALL’s CHANCE IN HELL!!!! Totally different scenario when you are facing a handful of hitters ONCE vs three/four times around in the same game. You can never compare a closer to a starter....no way.

Couldn't agree more

[ullmandds]

Congrats to mariano...and moose and the rest of a deserving class. Def the best closer of all time... his cutter was practically unhittable and sawed bats in half at an alarming rate! I can’t think of any other player in the upcoming years more deserving of a unanimous vote.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Congrats to mariano...and moose and the rest of a deserving class. Def the best closer of all time... his cutter was practically unhittable and sawed bats in half at an alarming rate! I can’t think of any other player in the upcoming years more deserving of a unanimous vote.

Derek Jeter for sure.

[DeanH3]

Saw, or heard, a stat that said teams who led in the ninth converted something like 90%+ of the win regardless of who pitched. Not saying Rivera is not worthy. But it does put the "save" in some perspective.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Derek Jeter for sure.

Bites tongue. Walks away.

[the 'stache]

Calling Rivera the "greatest pitcher of all-time" is just absurd.

Greatest reliever? Debatable, certainly, but I think he is.

But Rivera had one pitch. The cut fastball. That's it. That he is the "greatest of all-time", and closing games instead of starting them should be telling.

What if he were a starter? On the mound in the first inning, his one pitch is hitting maximum velocity. For a few innings, he might be able to keep it close to peak. But soon, that velocity starts to drop as fatigue sets in. And a Mariano Rivera with no other pitch to keep hitters off balance is a dead man walking. To employ Boston vernacular, "Rivera woulda gotten tuned up."

A designated hitter isn't DHing because he's the bestest hitter in the world. He's doing it because the guys on the field can do something he can't. Taken as a whole, his hitting and poor fielding provides less value than the starters on the field. A starting pitcher can do what a closer cannot. The closer provides less value, just as the DH.

Look at the Brewers' Josh Hader. Two seasons in Milwaukee. A 183 ERA+. His 2018 FIP of 2.23 would represent the fifth best of Rivera's career. His 0.811 WHIP would be the second best of Rivera's career. Hader struck out 143 batters in 81 1/3 IP, or 15.8/9 IP. The Major League record for strikeouts in a nine inning game is 20. Hader averages about 16 Ks per 9 innings.

Does anybody here think that Hader would be nearly that effective as a starter? I sure as hell don't. That there's a debate on Brewers forums, "should we keep him in the pen, or let him start" speaks volumes. If you had a pitcher that could throw six to seven innings, thirty-three times a season, and strike out 15.8 batters per 9 innings, you're seriously going to tell me you'd keep him in the pen? Say Hader threw 200 innings as a starter, keeping that K rate. That would put him at about 350 strikeouts.

And you're going to keep him in the pen? 350 strikeouts in 200 innings, with a sub 0.900 WHIP and a FIP below 2.25 is a Cy Young-winning top-of-the-rotation starter.

If Rivera has to face the same lineup three or four times in a game, with one pitch, there's not a chance in hell he maintains his effectiveness. He couldn't do the starter's job. But there are multiple starters in today's game that, if they assumed a closer's role, could do a job comparable to Rivera or Hader. Clayton Kershaw from a year or two ago, prior to his injuries, would absolutely baffle batters for an inning. Toss Chris Sale out there. Corey Kluber. Jacob deGrom had a 216 ERA+ over 32 starts and 217 IP. 1.70 ERA and a 1.99 FIP! Would you want to face him fresh, in the ninth inning, down by a run? Here, coach. Take my bat, and find somebody else. I'm going to look like John Kruk against Randy Johnson.

Rivera is not the best pitcher to ever play the game. Just stop it.

[AndrewJerome]

There are 3506 views of this thread, and I think maybe 1 person saying he's the best overall pitcher ever. A more interesting question is his place in baseball history, i.e. what value do relievers have in MLB.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by AndrewJerome

There are 3506 views of this thread, and I think maybe 1 person saying he's the best overall pitcher ever. A more interesting question is his place in baseball history, i.e. what value do relievers have in MLB.

Nearly 40% of current major league rosters are relief pitchers, aka one inning wonders. In the next 40 years will 40% of the Hall of Fame inductees be relief pitchers. If you think so, I have a lot near Area 51 that I would gladly show you. It’s a deal.

[bigfanNY]

Congratulations to Mariano Rivera on a great Career. Obviously being the only player EVER to be elected to the Hall Of Fame unanimously puts a target on your back. But as a lifelong Yankee fan I cannot imagine a person who deserves the honor more. That being said there are a number of players I cannot understand any baseball writer not voting for Seaver, Griffey.. The list is long. So as the first person to clear that bar, Mariano deserves to be recognized as one of the great pitchers of his generation. It was a pleasure to watch him pitch.
Jonathan Sterling