Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[Pat R]

Thank you for your response Jeremy. I don't think either one of us is
going to change the other persons opinion on this. As I have stated previously
based on extended research of different aspects of the printing of the
T206 set the T213-1's don't match up with any of the 350 series
backs that were printed with subjects used in the T213-1's.
If we find evidence that they were printed during the 350 only
phase (and I have been searching one way or the other) they would be a rule breaker for sure.

I don't think I answered your question about when I felt the T213-1's
were printed. Honestly I don't know it could have been soon after the
350 only printing concluded up until right before the printing of T213-2's
but in my opinion they reused the leftover plates/artwork and
possibly someone selected the subjects they wanted to use for the
T213-1's from the group of plates that were no longer being used.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

I will lean on Ted, Scot, you, and others on the following questions...

What about the other "Southern Leaguers" from the T206 set? Any patterns with the remaining "SL" players even though they are not actually SL players but called that in the T206 set... (Texas League, South Atlantic League, Virginia League are all absent from the Coupon set, correct !?) The Coupon set has 20 True Southern League players in it. Those 8 Teams represented are period to 1909.
This would suggest they were produced & released around that time frame, most likely 1910, but most certainly not later than 1911.

Why is the Coupon set missing T206 Southern leaguers from The South Atlantic, Virginia, and Texas leagues ? Perhaps, it's as easy as where they were released. New Orleans. New Orleans was in the Southern Association obvioulsy and the 20 SL players represent 8 teams in the SA.

Jeremy

We may never find an actual date when the 1910 COUPON cards were issued. However, we really don't need to. We have sufficient evidence gleaned from years of our research,
which logically suggests that this set of 68 cards were printed and issued within the T206 timeline.

Starting with this fact that American Lithographic (ALC) in 1909 printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL)...….16 of which represent the Southern Association. Circa late 1909
or early 1910, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects, 20 of which represent the Southern Association (SA). The four additional SA subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz
and Rockenfeld. This is significant, as it clearly sets a Spring/Summer 1910 timeline for this T206 press run.

Furthermore, a timeline "window" is set by the fact that Carlos Smith (Shreveport) is not included as SA guy, since the Shreveport Pirates were transferred from SA to the Texas
League (1908 - 1910). And, ALC correctly identified Carlos Smith as one of the six Texas Leaguers which were included in the group of 48 subjects in the SL sub-set.

Finally, for those who think that ALC printed the "T213-1" cards in 1911 (or beyond). ALC started their gold-bordered sets (T80, T205, etc.) in the Spring of 1911. We have ALC
documented evidence regarding the T80 cards which were inserted in cigarettes packs with 350/460 and 460-only series T206 cards in the Spring of 1911......

T80 cards




Jeremy
It has become wearisome trying to convince members of this forum that the "T213-1" cards are indeed 1910 COUPON's which were printed and issued within the T206 timeline.

Take care good buddy.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jeremy

We may never find an actual date when the 1910 COUPON cards were issued. However, we really don't need to. We have sufficient evidence gleaned from years of our research,
which logically suggests that this set of 68 cards were printed and issued within the T206 timeline.

Starting with this fact that American Lithographic (ALC) in 1909 printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL)...….16 of which represent the Southern Association. Circa late 1909
or early 1910, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects, 20 of which represent the Southern Association (SA). The four additional SA subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz
and Rockenfeld. This is significant, as it clearly sets a Spring/Summer 1910 timeline for this T206 press run.

Furthermore, a timeline "window" is set by the fact that Carlos Smith (Shreveport) is not included as SA guy, since the Shreveport Pirates were transferred from SA to the Texas
League (1908 - 1910). And, ALC correctly identified Carlos Smith as one of the six Texas Leaguers which were included in the group of 48 subjects in the SL sub-set.
Finally, for those who think that ALC printed the "T213-1" cards in 1911 (or beyond). ALC started their gold-bordered sets (T80, T205, etc.) in the Spring of 1911. We have ALC
documented evidence regarding the T80 cards which were inserted in cigarettes packs with 350/460 and 460-only series T206 cards in the Spring of 1911......




Jeremy
It has become wearisome trying to convince members of this forum that the "T213-1" cards are indeed 1910 COUPON's which were printed and issued within the T206 timeline.

Take care good buddy.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, The same thing would apply if they reused the old plates as it would
for several of the things you've brought attention to.

[tedzan]

Pat

Back in my High School days (during the Paleolithic Age ), I worked part-time in a Print Shop. I'm quite familiar with printing practices. And, I can tell you that printers
don't use.... "reused the old plates".
Major printing firms have multiple plates of each image so that they can replace used ones. As is obvious, as the plates wear the quality of the printed image deteriorates.

ALC printed the T213-2, T213-3, T214, T215-2 cards with a whole new set of printing plates.

The "T213-1" sub-set was printed concurrently with the exact same printing plates used to produce their respective T206 cards


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jeremy

Starting with this fact that American Lithographic (ALC) in 1909 printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL)...….16 of which represent the Southern Association.
Circa late 1909 or early 1910, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects, 20 of which represent the Southern Association (SA). The four additional
SA subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz and Rockenfeld.

This is significant, as it clearly sets a Spring/Summer 1910 timeline for this T206 press run.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hey guys,

First of all, Lew Lipset is absolutely correct...…

" According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire 1910 Coupon group consist of 350 series.
Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects. "

2nd....The 20 subjects in this set from the Southern Association were NOT all printed in 1909 with HINDU backs !
Only 16 of the 20 were. See the excerpt from my post # 156 reprised above.

This fact confirms Lipset's second statement quoted above.

Please, let's consider the actual facts in the printing of these cards, instead of going off on misleading statements.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

I stand corrected I didn't check all 20 subjects but the fact is there are
150/350 southern league subjects in the coupon set.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I stand corrected I didn't check all 20 subjects but the fact is there are
150/350 southern league subjects in the coupon set.

Pat

Please don't misconstrue, I'm not trying to be negative....but, incorrect facts in this debate can only drive us "crazy" in our attempts to resolve this puzzle.

Yes, we all know there are 34 - Southern Leaguer's (SL) which were printed in 1909 when ALC produced the 150/350 series cards.

But, the bigger picture to consider in this argument is that ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects when they started printing the 350 series cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RedsFan1941]

you are right ted. incorrect facts are not helpful.

[frohme]

Lots of good discussion and back and forth amidst everything.

I would like to add only that having owned only a few, and watched the site somewhat religiously, the highest graded T213-1 I've seen posted is an SGC 50 Ed Reagan (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...0&postcount=36). I remember another full-size one, but I couldn't find it quickly... maybe Pete can re-post it


The theories, conjectures, and discussion points around when various changes might have been imposed by the ATC breakup are interesting to think about with what might have already been in flight for T207 (i.e Napoleon, Anonymous, & Red Cross backs), but that's a subject for another thread.

--
Mike

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,

First of all, Lew Lipset is absolutely correct...…

" According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire 1910 Coupon group consist of 350 series.
Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects. "

2nd....The 20 subjects in this set from the Southern Association were NOT all printed in 1909 with HINDU backs !
Only 16 of the 20 were. See the excerpt from my post # 156 reprised above.

This fact confirms Lipset's second statement quoted above.

Please, let's consider the actual facts in the printing of these cards, instead of going off on misleading statements.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thanks Ted for posting that info... That does confirm what I have been saying and thought that was the case. The fact that Burdick named the first coupon cards Type 1 and designated it T213 is not in question by me. What I am saying is all evidence leans towards the Coupon being another American Litho-ATC brand and the 350 series subjects suggest it was a brand from 1909-11 time frame, then I think we could all agree that Coupon is another brand just like the 16 brands Burdick designated T206. My point is, it's pretty obvious that Coupon brand is much more alike the rest of the T206 cards than it is the other two Coupon brands from 1914 & 1919. Also, don't forget that Burdick didn't even have a final count on the Type 1 Coupons (68) so he really wasn't as familiar with them as other ATC brands.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys,

First of all, Lew Lipset is absolutely correct...…

" According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire 1910 Coupon group consist of 350 series.
Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects. "

[B]2nd....The 20 subjects in this set from the Southern Association were NOT all printed in 1909 with HINDU backs !
Only 16 of the 20 were. See the excerpt from my post # 156 reprised above.[/B]

This fact confirms Lipset's second statement quoted above.

Please, let's consider the actual facts in the printing of these cards, instead of going off on misleading statements.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Actually Ted since you're concerned about accuracy Lipset didn't specify Hindu and although he didn't know it at the time we now have proof
that except for the six Texas League players all of the SL players were printed in 1909 during the 150 series including all 20 of the coupon
SL subjects and despite not knowing this fact Lipset still considered them a "unique issue".

img890.jpg

img891.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

…..and although he didn't know it at the time we now have proof that except for the six Texas League players all of the SL players were printed in 1909 during the 150 series including all 20 of the coupon SL subjects.....

Pat...….. "including all 20 of the coupon SL subjects"…….. WRONG !

So, where are the BROWN HINDU cards of these four Southern Association players.... Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz, Rockenfeld ! ?

These four Southern Association subjects were NOT PRINTED or issued in the initial launch of the Southern League group of 34 cards in 1909.

I don't understand why you continue to ignore this fact. These 4 guys were not available until all 48 of the Southern Leaguers were issued circa early 1910 (with OLD MILL backs,
or with PIEDMONT 350 backs).


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat...….. "including all 20 of the coupon SL subjects"…….. WRONG !

So, where are the BROWN HINDU cards of these four Southern Association players.... Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz, Rockenfeld ! ?

These four Southern Association subjects were NOT PRINTED or issued in the initial launch of the Southern League group of 34 cards in 1909.

I don't understand why you continue to ignore this fact. These 4 guys were not available until all 48 of the Southern Leaguers were issued circa early 1910 (with OLD MILL backs,
or with PIEDMONT 350 backs).

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, The Old Mill Southern League ad is dated August 14 1909 are you
suggesting that they printed 34 subjects with the Old Mill backs and then
waited six to nine months before they printed the other 14 subjects with
Old Mill Backs?

13 of the 14 are depicted on the team they played on in 1909 on their T206 cards and only 4 are
depicted on the team they played on in 1910 and that's because they
stayed on the same team they played for in 1909.

Non Hindu SL chart.jpg

[tedzan]

Pat

By your own admission you do not put together T206 sets......it's not your thing. Otherwise, you would have a different perspective on how these cards were produced.

Having "completed" 5 - T206 sets (and working on near "complete" 6th set), I can tell you that tracking down PIEDMONT 350 vs. OLD MILL backed Southern Leaguers
is an interesting experience. I could go into a lengthy dissertation on this subject, however it has been a long day and I'm tired. Besides, it has become apparent to me
that when I post some meaningful and valid factors on these cards, you ignore what I have said and go on to some other diversion.

So, the answer(s) you are looking for in your last post are addressed by Scot Reader in his excellent book "Inside T206" (pages 44-46)........so check-it-out.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[RCMcKenzie]

someone selected the subjects they wanted to use for the
T213-1's from the group of plates that were no longer being used.

This is what I was driving at when I asked about the Shreveport, LA. player. Why are they selecting Billy Campbell unless they had to as part of a group?