Trimming Frauds Revealed | How Does It Impact Vintage???

[egbeachley]

Just repeating. They say there is a confirmed sale of $95K and 2 other private sales above that. Looking at the same card? There are probably hundreds of LeBron rookies.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Just repeating. They say there is a confirmed sale of $95K and 2 other private sales above that. Looking at the same card? There are probably hundreds of LeBron rookies.

Who says? There are no confirmed sales over 20k on the 03/04 Exquisite LeBron James RC /99. It would sell above that, but until one is actually sold, no one knows what the card actually sells for. Ask yourself, if there are 99 of these, why does the t206 Wagner with a lower population and higher value come up for auction every so often, but these are only sold "privately"?

[egbeachley]

Ok it wasn’t a /99 card as I went back and looked. Keep in mind that there are over 3,000 posts on this thread. The $95K was referring to a /23 card, possibly a Jordan. And the $100K sale was for the same and the cashiers check shown for $250K likely included more than 1 card. These are also cards sold by BNC after trims.

[MattyC]

Is anyone really surprised that cards are being doctored in the myriad ways they can be— and that the work is sometimes done with a level of skill that gets it, "past the goalie," so to speak? Seems like a lot of Sturm und Drang over the obvious. Doctoring happens— and to cards of all grades, from the 2s to the 10s and everywhere in between. It's specious to think it is relegated solely to the realm of higher grades, since the spread to a seller from a 1 to a 3 on one card can be as worthwhile when it comes to doctoring as the spread from a 7 to 9 on another card.

End of the day, a collector should just be aware, get as much knowledge as possible of his desired collecting focus (as well as all the possible shenanigans that abound, from doctoring to the use of bogus sales to establish precedents), then purchase the pieces they'll enjoy.

It's also worth noting that not all collectors have the same attitudes toward all the forms of card doctoring; some may draw the line at trimming or recoloring, but have no issues with a pressed-out crease or a worked corner. Others might be cool with stain removal but would not want a card with a worked corner. In a way, though, it's all moot if one (and the graders) can't detect a trace of what was done to the card at some prior point in time.

[Johnny630]

Most of us probably know who to stay away from when it comes to vintage scammers. If you do not know don't trust anyone, only buy slabbed by major TPG. When I'm selling a raw vintage card I guarantee it will grade, ie is not alterted or trimmed ect. I do not guarantee a specif grade it will receive. I back it up 100% as authentic, unaltered or trimmed ect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Most of us probably know who to stay away from when it comes to vintage scammers. If you do not know don't trust anyone, only buy slabbed by major TPG. When I'm selling a raw vintage card I guarantee it will grade, ie is not alterted or trimmed ect. I do not guarantee a specif grade it will receive. I back it up 100% as authentic, unaltered or trimmed ect.

The whole point is buying slabbed from major TPG is not necessarily a guaranty that a card has not been altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Is anyone really surprised that cards are being doctored in the myriad ways they can be— and that the work is sometimes done with a level of skill that gets it, "past the goalie," so to speak? Seems like a lot of Sturm und Drang over the obvious. Doctoring happens— and to cards of all grades, from the 2s to the 10s and everywhere in between. It's specious to think it is relegated solely to the realm of higher grades, since the spread to a seller from a 1 to a 3 on one card can be as worthwhile when it comes to doctoring as the spread from a 7 to 9 on another card.

End of the day, a collector should just be aware, get as much knowledge as possible of his desired collecting focus (as well as all the possible shenanigans that abound, from doctoring to the use of bogus sales to establish precedents), then purchase the pieces they'll enjoy.

It's also worth noting that not all collectors have the same attitudes toward all the forms of card doctoring; some may draw the line at trimming or recoloring, but have no issues with a pressed-out crease or a worked corner. Others might be cool with stain removal but would not want a card with a worked corner. In a way, though, it's all moot if one (and the graders) can't detect a trace of what was done to the card at some prior point in time.

It's not that the graders "can't" detect alteration, in many cases. It's that they don't, whether due to insufficient knowledge or inadequate resources/time.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not that the graders "can't" detect alteration, in many cases. It's that they don't, whether due to insufficient knowledge or inadequate resources/time.

This is what I am wondering. On a 50+ year old card, is it easier to detect a new cut vs an old one? Someone made a claim that BGS could tell the difference between a Star card cut in the 80s and one reprinted and cut in the 90s. However now they can't tell the difference between one cut in 2004 and one cut ~10 years later, LeBron Exquisite.

You would think that if they get a grading order and all the cards are slightly short, but within their allowance, that a red light would go off.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's not that the graders "can't" detect alteration, in many cases. It's that they don't, whether due to insufficient knowledge or inadequate resources/time.

Matty made a great point though about cards of all grades being vulnerable to altering and it is not just with the higher graded material. However you too make a very valid point that not enough time, it would seem, is spent examining the cards. I think the volume of cards and pressure to get submissions completed to avoid further backlogs results in more mistakes.

I don't look at Beckett graded material much due to what I continually hear about them so not sure I would put their errors in the same category as those that might occur at SGC and PSA.

Seems like a lot out there collectors have to navigate even with 3rd party opinions. Almost discouraging to collect.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

However you too make a very valid point that not enough time, it would seem, is spent examining the cards. I think the volume of cards and pressure to get submissions completed to avoid further backlogs results in more mistakes.

And the time it takes to examine a card is just one factor that is unknown, with the identity of the people doing the grading, their qualifications for the job, any cross-checking by other graders, etc. are more unknowns. More transparency on the TPG's part in the grading process would be welcome in the hobby, but I don't expect it to happen at all.

That said, over the past 20+ years, the market has determined that three TPGs have earned enough trust by collectors who venture into graded items. We'll have to see over the coming months and years if the trimming and forgery revelations will erode much, if any, of that trust and if any TPGs will take the opportunity to address the issues and improve on their service. I'm sorry to say that I don't have high expectations here, either.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Seems like a lot out there collectors have to navigate even with 3rd party opinions. Almost discouraging to collect.

Yep. All you can do, short of quitting (and I did once out of disgust for the whole card doctoring BS) is to navigate it the best you can realizing your success rate likely will not be 100 percent unless you're only buying beat up commons, or busting wax.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

However you too make a very valid point that not enough time, it would seem, is spent examining the cards. I think the volume of cards and pressure to get submissions completed to avoid further backlogs results in more mistakes.

From CLCT annual report:

As of June 30, 2018, we employed 3 autograph experts who joined the Company in the last two years, as well as outside consultants that we sometimes use on a contract basis.

3*50 weeks *40 hours =6000 hours. That is 35 autograph certifications per hour. Even if you have contracted guys, you are not getting to a manageable number. Look at all the work they say goes into authenticating an autograph in 1:42 (assuming 2 weeks vacation, no bathroom breaks, no sick days, no out of office days, and you are a robot that just churns all day long every second aside from an hour for lunch):

The vintage autograph authentication business is distinctly different from the “signed-in-the-presence” authentication of autographs where an “authenticator” is present and witnesses the actual signing. Our vintage autograph authentication service involves the rendering of an opinion of authenticity by an industry expert based on (i) an analysis of the signed object, such as the signed document or autographed item of memorabilia, to confirm its consistency with similar materials or items that existed during the signer’s lifetime; (ii) a comparison of the signature submitted for authentication with exemplars of such signatures; and (iii) a handwriting analysis. As of June 30, 2018, we employed 3 autograph experts who joined the Company in the last two years, as well as outside consultants that we sometimes use on a contract basis.
In June 2004, we also began offering grading services for autographs, beginning with baseballs containing a single signature or autograph. We use uniform grading standards that we have developed and a numeric scale of 1-to-10, with the highest number representing top quality or “Gem Mint” condition. We assign grades to the collectibles based on the physical condition or state of preservation of the autograph.

By contrast, they are grading 14 cards per hour according to the same metrics with 63 employees, which also seems high, but whatever.

Plenty of other yellow/red flags from their annual report if curious.

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by rats60

Who says? There are no confirmed sales over 20k on the 03/04 Exquisite LeBron James RC /99. It would sell above that, but until one is actually sold, no one knows what the card actually sells for. Ask yourself, if there are 99 of these, why does the t206 Wagner with a lower population and higher value come up for auction every so often, but these are only sold "privately"?

Because basketball collectors don't want to pay a huge commission to auction houses?
And rich Asians lock their lebron and Jordan's away as collections, the Wagner is simply a commodity to be bought and sold.
I'm not joking, look at the Asian collectors on ig. Shoot, the card companies make special Asian releases now. The over seas market is insane.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by itslarry

Because basketball collectors don't want to pay a huge commission to auction houses?
And rich Asians lock their lebron and Jordan's away as collections, the Wagner is simply a commodity to be bought and sold.
I'm not joking, look at the Asian collectors on ig. Shoot, the card companies make special Asian releases now. The over seas market is insane.

I don't think that is it. Goldin Auctions recently had a far more desirable card, the 03/04 Ultimate Collection Logoman Lebron James Auto 1/1. PWCC recently sold the most desirable Michael Jordan card outside of a few 1/1s, the 97/98 Upper Deck Game Jersey Auto /23. I would argue that is also more desirable than the Exquisite LeBron /99.