recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

Yeah, why waste their time with scrutinizing every autograph that walks through their door?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

With all due respect.....you are WRONG!!!!! If you think just anyone can get a prominent autograph like ruth, gehrig, Mathewson, etc. past Grad, Keating, Spence, etc. you are BADLY MISTAKEN. You obviously don’t collect high end autographs so this conversation is out of your league. But, I might add, there are nearly 3,000 8, 9, 10 graded T206s on the PSA pop chart and you feel comfortable that all of those 110 year old cards miraculously retained a majority of their original factory issued condition without any tampering.....ok.....

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

+1 Thank you for this common sense! Trust me, Grad, Spence & Keating are better than people think. Especially for high end autographs. They absolutely scrutinize Ruth’s, Gehrig’s, Matty’s, etc., almost to the point where you have to worry about having a real signature declined.

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

[mrvster]

WoW!

I couldn't have said it myself better! thanks for the back up


I , since I don't own any high end autos, am not qualified and this conversation is "out of my league"

[mrvster]

logical solutions the tps maybe able to reduce the error rate:

1) have a panel of experts look at each auto(if jsa is on site......and if only 1 or 2 authenticators are present, have experts on staff remotely look at scans as the on site graders look at it physically)

2) keep a data base of cards graded and cert #'s and scans....this way cards can get cross checked(even if re slabbed)

3) have grading companies "freely" share data to reduce fraud and work together to help the industry as a whole

4) ask for "provenance" of the signed pieces- paper work , photos , witness accounts, letters, ect

5) include a report to reflect these things

6) have different "tiers" of being authenticated- example tier 1 = only an "opinion" card or item- has no provenance , but graders "feels" it looks as if were authentic tier 2 = piece or card with original origin story and documentation tier 3 = documentation, photos ect...


so tier 1 tier 2 or tier 3 in confidence of authenticity(higher tier, more likely it is authentic)

7) btw- PSA DNA- do they actually conduct DNA TESTS?????????

maybe they can somehow in the future actually dna pieces for and detect something that way?????

not sure....


these are just some quick thoughts about how TPGers can "tighten" up standards on these pieces

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by irv

But yet I have read on more than one occasion where James Spence has also rejected a previous autograph that he once deemed/certified as good?
http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

I wasn't around earlier in the hobby when you and some others said the hobby was fraught with bad nefarious things and if it wasn't for the TPA's and authenticators, things would be far worse today.
I personally don't buy that. I think these guys like JSA and PSA/DNA saw an opportunity to capitalize on that fear giving the falsehood all will be good again, as long as you send money our way.

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264

I can understand people defending their actions/reputation as I am sure, like one member who admitted he profited from peoples ignorance of what these TPAs and authenticators deliver, many have a lot to lose.

Personally, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this, but in order to keep the hobby healthy and progressing forward, these shenanigans need to be exposed and stopped, not defended.

It actually happened to me about 10 years ago. Bought a high-end autograph that had a Spence PSA LOA. When I asked Spence to issue me a JSA LOA, he declined it after a few days, stating he uncovered more facts relating to the autograph that made it no good. As a matter of fact, Spence was right, and I had to eat crow. Spence sat me down and thoroughly explained why the autograph was no good, going through his amazing exemplar file with me to unquestionably prove his point. Was i pissed....yes. Did I stop collecting autographs....NO. Crap like that happens, but for the most part, I’ve been fortunate to collect a number of great autographs that I am comfortable with, regardless of the associated PSA & JSA LOAs I also have. Does it get frustrating sometimes....sure. But I roll with the punches and continue to use BOTH my educated judgement along with the opinions of the hobby experts. It is what it is.

[deeg23]

I didn’t read this whole thread, but these new developments won’t really deter me from buying some autographs! Nobody is perfect and I’m just glad these fakes were caught and removed from the hobby!

The autograph hobby still seems strong even after Operation Bullpen happened, so I figure if it can overcome something of that magnitude, it can overcome this!

My two cents 😊

[ruth_rookie]

Originally Posted by irv

How many times have we seen bad cards, bad auto's, and heard of stories about favorable grades granted to favorable submitters? The list of shenanigans is longer than both my arms put together.

"While the specialists say their services have cleaned up an industry rife with fraud, critics say their "expert authentication" is little more than pseudoscience used to generate millions in profits at collectors' expense"
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/a...siness-6395264ed.

That’s a very revealing and scary article. A quote: “The agency estimates that as much as 90% of the sports collectibles market is bogus...”

Wow!!!!