Trimming Frauds Revealed | How Does It Impact Vintage???

Bpm0014 · #1 01-03-2019, 08:10 AM

I have a raw T206 set. A small percentage are beaters. But I feel like you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 01-03-2019, 09:00 AM

I find it interesting that with all the people who must have graded for PSA over the years, as far as I know, with the exception of Bill Hughes claiming PSA knew the Wagner was trimmed, there has not been a single public accusation of fraud or incompetence by an ex-grader.

JustinD · #3 01-03-2019, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I find it interesting that with all the people who must have graded for PSA over the years, as far as I know, with the exception of Bill Hughes claiming PSA knew the Wagner was trimmed, there has not been a single public accusation of fraud or incompetence by an ex-grader.

Does anyone know if they have employees sign NDAs? Pretty commonplace in industry today.

bnorth · #4 01-03-2019, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

Does anyone know if they have employees sign NDAs? Pretty commonplace in industry today.

I have no idea if they do but every business should along with a non compete agreement.

Exhibitman · #5 01-03-2019, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have no idea if they do but every business should along with a non compete agreement.

Nope. PSA is California-based and our laws basically prohibit employee non-compete contracts except when the employee is a selling owner of the business.

NDAs, however, are not only allowed, they are commonplace in some industries, especially entertainment. You wanna clean toilets in Burbank (home of Warner Bros, Nickelodeon, Disney, etc.) you're probably gonna sign a non-disclosure agreement. After all, no telling what Nickelodeon might do with information on Disney execs' pooing habits.

PS: Barry is right, as is Frank.

Leon · #6 01-03-2019, 11:08 AM

How about if those non compete contracts were paid for with compensation in order to be able to be upheld?

Non Competes are also void in Texas, I believe, unless there is compensation to the employee for signing it. At least that is what I was told when I was given a $5000 check for signing one (a long time ago).

and back to the original trimming issue. Thanks Eric (post 27)....that one I followed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Nope. PSA is California-based and our laws basically prohibit employee non-compete contracts except when the employee is a selling owner of the business.

NDAs, however, are not only allowed, they are commonplace in some industries, especially entertainment. You wanna clean toilets in Burbank (home of Warner Bros, Nickelodeon, Disney, etc.) you're probably gonna sign a non-disclosure agreement. After all, no telling what Nickelodeon might do with information on Disney execs' pooing habits.

PS: Barry is right, as is Frank.

vintagetoppsguy · #7 01-03-2019, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Non Competes are also void in Texas, I believe, unless there is compensation to the employee for signing it. At least that is what I was told when I was given a $5000 check for signing one (a long time ago).

Correct, they are not enforceable, but I don't know about the compensation part. Seems reasonable that you could be sued for breach of contract though if you broke it.

As far as NDAs, I was told they are not enforceable either in Texas, but I don't know that for sure. I've signed confidentiality agreements (I guess that's the same thing as an NDA), but I was told by others that they're not enforceable.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 01-03-2019, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinD

Does anyone know if they have employees sign NDAs? Pretty commonplace in industry today.

Sure you can protect proprietary information to some extent but you can't extract a vow of omerta.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 01-03-2019, 09:35 AM

..

Bpm0014 · #10 01-03-2019, 09:37 AM

Ty Cobb should have rounded corners and Matty isn�t always perfectly centered.

Amen Frank!

barrysloate · #11 01-03-2019, 10:04 AM

I don't think the realization that trimmed cards are being slabbed will have that much of an impact on the hobby for a simple reason: too many very wealthy and powerful people have huge amounts of money invested in slabbed cards, and they will not let anything get in the way of them profiting on their investment. The news will just get swept under the rug like so many other things in our world today.

In short, financial gain trumps the truth.

frankbmd · #12 01-03-2019, 09:31 AM

If one is talking about razor sharp corners on a T206, should not the next question be .........

How sharp were razors in 1910?

The unintended consequences of grading, slabbing, authentication and registries have opened the door for mischief and fraud. And yet ...............

The TPGs rake in the dough and the �sheeple� wait 2,3 or even 12 months for their services (?).

Wake up, sheeple. Preservation of a low or mid grade prewar card in a slab may be justified, but climbing the scale from 6 to 7 to 8 is an act of self-deception. How many 100 year old antiques (not restored) look like they were produced in the 21st century? Ty Cobb should have rounded corners and Matty isn�t always perfectly centered.

And with essentially only one registry ruling the roost, you are supporting the problem, not looking for a solution.

Competition in a market is generally a good thing, I think. When one entity has an 80% share of the market, look for them to maintain control, which may not be a good thing.

In the modern market, give me one hundred �pack fresh� cards and ask me to make three piles, 8, 9 and 10. Then give the same one hundred cards to another collector to make the same three piles. Would the piles be the same? I really doubt it and they may not even be close and yet when the cards come back slabbed, a 10 is worth 10 times the value of a 9, and a 9 is worth 10 times the value of an 8. And once again the TPGs rake in the dough and the �sheeple� play along not only once, but again and again. Lottery psychology drives the market, maintains control and that 80% market share.

ls7plus · #13 01-03-2019, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

...

In the modern market, give me one hundred �pack fresh� cards and ask me to make three piles, 8, 9 and 10. Then give the same one hundred cards to another collector to make the same three piles. Would the piles be the same? I really doubt it and they may not even be close and yet when the cards come back slabbed, a 10 is worth 10 times the value of a 9, and a 9 is worth 10 times the value of an 8. And once again the TPGs rake in the dough and the �sheeple� play along not only once, but again and again. Lottery psychology drives the market, maintains control and that 80% market share.

They performed this very experiment in the coin collecting hobby in court, Frank, and the results were exactly what you have postulated--no consistency!

Best wishes,

Larry

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