Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

[AGuinness]

I have no horse in this race, but it does make me wonder: how would T213-1s being reclassified as T206s change how you collect, if it happened?

For me, it wouldn't change my T206 goal (Red Sox team set with all different backs), as none of the Sox players appeared in the T213-1s, but rather later Coupons.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Maybe, Like many other things, it came from conjecture not fact. When I started quoting Burdick all I got in response was some old hobbyists said "this and that."
I say if we are going to have a good debate we should base it on facts not what someone might have said a long time ago.

Leon

Does your last comment also apply to Jefferson Burdick ?

As, I am sure you know, when he became aware (circa 1940's) that there were several white-bordered sets of tobacco cards issued in the Louisiana area (T213, T214, T215),
he originally considered the "T213-1" set as an extension of the T206 set.

I could give you a lengthy dissertation on all the factors with these Major League (48) subjects and their relevance to the other T206 brands, that results in a narrow timeline.
And, this research convinces me that the 1910 COUPON cards were indeed printed (and issued) in 1910.

And to a less complicated degree, the Southern Association (20) subjects fit into this narrow timeline. However, I will spare you all the nitty-gritty details.


1910 COUPON ("T213-1") Major League (48) subjects





Southern Association (20) subjects





In my opinion....these cards (and the red Ty Cobb card with the TY COBB back) were advertising premiums, rather than insert cards (into tobacco products).

The bottom line is....you say nay and I say yea....to the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards as just another T-brand in the T206 set. And that is fine with me.
For I will just keep on rolling along including 1910 COUPON cards in my T206 runs of my favorite subjects.

Happy New Year to you, Leon.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Leon]

Hey Ted
I will try to do some more research for our next slugfest. Until then I hope this year is better than your last!! Happy collecting.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Leon

Does your last comment also apply to Jefferson Burdick ?

As, I am sure you know, when he became aware (circa 1940's) that there were several white-bordered sets of tobacco cards issued in the Louisiana area (T213, T214, T215),
he originally considered the "T213-1" set as an extension of the T206 set.

I could give you a lengthy dissertation on all the factors with these Major League (48) subjects and their relevance to the other T206 brands, that results in a narrow timeline.
And, this research convinces me that the 1910 COUPON cards were indeed printed (and issued) in 1910.
And to a less complicated degree, the Southern Association (20) subjects fit into this narrow timeline. However, I will spare you all the nitty-gritty details.


1910 COUPON ("T213-1") Major League (48) subjects





Southern Association (20) subjects





In my opinion....these cards (and the red Ty Cobb card with the TY COBB back) were advertising premiums, rather than insert cards (into tobacco products).

The bottom line is....you say nay and I say yea....to the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards as just another T-brand in the T206 set. And that is fine with me.
For I will just keep on rolling along including 1910 COUPON cards in my T206 runs of my favorite subjects.

Happy New Year to you, Leon.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, I think the 1910 timeline is important in this discussion as several people have stated that it's the main the reason they think the T213-1's should be included in the T206 set. I have been searching here and other places and everything I found about the 1910 date is based on the fact that they're all 350 only subjects which isn't true and I will explain this and provide evidence tomorrow because it will require a lengthy post.

In the meantime I have a question for you.

There isn't a single minor league player in the T213-1 set does any other back with 350 only subjects exclude all of the minor league players?

Also you say the super prints were supposed to be 350 only but ALC
changed their mind on them which I disagree with but either way
the fact is they're not a 350 only subject.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I think the 1910 timeline is important in this discussion as several people have stated that it's the main the reason they think the T213-1's should be included in the T206 set.

I have been searching here and other places and everything I found about the 1910 date is based on the fact that they're all 350 only subjects which isn't true

and I will explain this and provide evidence tomorrow because it will require a lengthy post.

In the meantime I have a question for you.

There isn't a single minor league player in the T213-1 set does any other back with 350 only subjects exclude all of the minor league players?

Also you say the super prints were supposed to be 350 only but ALC
changed their mind on them which I disagree with but either way
the fact is they're not a 350 only subject.

Pat

1st..the 48 card arrangement of the Major Leaguers in the "T213-1" set were printed during an American Litho's early press run of the 350-only series T206's.
The timeline of this printing is in the Spring of 1910. This timeline is reinforced by the fact that 40 of these subjects were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs.
The initial POLAR BEAR press runs started in the Summer of 1910. American Litho printed 138 subjects of the 350-only series with the POLAR BEAR backs.

2nd..In the 150 series press runs, American Lithographic printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL)….16 of which represent the Southern Association. Then in
the 350 series press runs, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects....20 of which represent the Southern Association. The 4 additional Southern Association
subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz and Rockenfeld. This fact is important, as it clearly sets a Spring 1910 timeline for the print run of the "T213-1" cards.

3rd..42 of the 48 subjects are absolutely 350-only series subjects. This fact is certain since these cards were subsequently printed with AB350 (frame)..BL350..
CY 350..DRUM 350 backs (circa Summer 1910). And, you have to realize that the 6 super-prints were originally printed in this early 350-only series press run
together with these other 42 subjects.
The 6 super-prints, of course, were also printed with the A-B-C-D pattern. It wasn't until the SOVEREIGN 350 "apple green" print run (circa Fall 1910) that the
6 super-prints were then extended into the 350/460 series.

It appears to me that your dogmatic mind-set is preventing you from understanding this sequence of events.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Honestly Ted what do you expect when you start off a thread calling people
naysayers and uniformed and accuse them of misleading just because their
opinion is different from yours. I am amazed at how you dodge questions
like a mongoose dodging a cobra and spin your answers though.

I was responding to your unedited post before you "corrected your typo"
so I'll continue using your original post.

img839.jpg

1st - This is different than your original reason but anyway there
are 67 Polar Bear no prints and all of them are 350 only subjects. Of
those 67 subjects 51 are major league subjects and only 16 are minor
league subjects which relates to my second response/question to you.
So the amount of PB no prints in the Coupons isn't surprising the main fact
is some of them were printed with PB backs.

2nd I stated minor leaguers not southern leaguers and the
question was are there any other backs that were printed with the
350 only subjects in the T206 set that has no minor league subjects
in it?

3rd I agree that 42 of the 48 subjects are 350 only subjects and
I never said they weren't you originally said all 68 were 350 only subjects
and they're not. 350 only means those subjects were only printed on 350
series backs 34 of the southern leaguers were printed with Hindu backs
in the 150 series and the super prints were printed with 350-460 and
460 backs.

[Exhibitman]

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

Adam

I appreciate your comment.....I did not intend to delve into all this "nitty-gritty regarding T206 / 1910 COUPON stuff.

Sometimes I feel like I am in a courtroom scenario on this forum responding to this continuous "grilling"

I've posted my theories on Net54 regarding T206's (and the like) since 2005. Most of them have withstood the test of time.

Many people like them, and then, some others don't.....Que sera, sera

Happy New Year, guy.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

It is starting to sound like a cable news show where the liberal and conservative repeat talking points at one another.

[DixieBaseball]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.