recent auto counterfeits - the effects on auto collecting??

[VintageVinnie]

I've collected autographs for years, but always in person. I get them at shows or at the AAA minor league park where I live. I'm fortunate that the front office usually brings in star players to sign throughout the season, just for the cost of admission. Usually a half dozen or so. I've gotten autographs of Rod Carew, Paul Molitor, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice and Harmon Killebrew at the park...just to name a few. The show autographs can get pricey depending on the player, but at least I have the confidence my stuff is real when I am enjoying it in the man cave. To me, that's worth the cost. Buying an autograph I did not witness??..too risky for me in today's memorabilia market.

[mrvster]

I think that's going to be to future of collecting pieces like this....

basically either acquiring yourself, or getting photos and documentation....

paperwork(like pawn stars)

a t206 with the return envelope for example is starter...

or a photo of the person signing the item.....

an admission ticket saved from the park that day, a program accompanying the item....

some back up proof is going to be needed in the future I see to combat all these forgeries....


John Vanderbeck

they are "diluting" the good ones....

tpgs and james spence ect are really going to be "iffy" and those items will now always be questioned of their authenticity(even if it is legit)....

the only way to get authentic/real is back up with documentation, certified letters, witnesses, programs, statements, photos, ect....

more provenance= more validity=more value


sad it has come to this

[mrvster]

you are great people, and I can understand why the defense.....

but comparing apples and oranges here....

faded out / washed out T206 cards, collectors are wise to.....advanced collectors now can EASILY differentiate between a "washed" out card, or a truly missing ink scrap....

that's why TPG are rarely even grading these anymore.....THEY ACTUALLY GOT WISE....maybe they will with the autos???

that's why you see a washed out card on EBAY and someone is "claiming" it's missing ink, and it sits on ebay for years for $400 dollars....they will be lucky to get $100 or $200 and its still "iffy"

these missing ink cards are barely getting a few hundred if lucky...


the true missing ink cards are hard to detect.....

scrap is totally different- true scrap has characteristics that are nearly impossible to fake.....try creating(except a franken wagner and spending 14 k to a conservator)....you can't simply ADD big wonky borders, that's why I like my scraps way over or grossly miscut ect....truly proves the validity....


trimming cards- I'm sure that takes skill to get it past a TPG(although it happens)......not many people could trim a card up and get it into a 8 or a 9 holder.....it does probably happen when the grader is dozing off that day...


the Wagner 8 is a poor example.....that had corruption written all over it, and is a high profile type of conspiracy on that card.....bad mojo


kids, now a days, are super smart.....

go into any middle school .....give them examples of SIGNATURES.....FAMOUS AUTOS ECT......

have them practice autos.....I bet you get 2 out of 10 that are pretty talented with a ball point or a pen or a sharpie....these kids have a lot of talent artistically....i'll bet, 2 of the 10 can PROBABLY FAKE A MANTLE PRETTY GOOD....

id even bet.....get them to actually auto index cards....I bet 2 of the 10 would get through a TPG....


now, take the same group......give them high profile cards......have them trim them, and try to pass a TPG....a possibility, but the probability is highly unlikely....

now, take same group of 12 year old.....give them some T206.....have them "wash out" certain colors.....have them try to create a MAGIE out of a MAGEE.....have them try to add N'TL....have them try to create extra 100 year old cardboard, and paste them on the borders of T206, create template ghost images in the same period ink and create cards and get them past graders.....NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!


if an attempt was made, id love to see it....


better yet....my challenge- id love to see someones creation and try to get the scan by me I probably don't even need to see it in person to tell if it is legit or not......

maybe if you created one digitally, that would be the only way...


the litholgraphy is too easy to distinguish....



my point......there is always going to be beat shit in the hobby.....there are fakes of all cards I'm sure, some even probably get by......that's why we are so critical of these.... but not EVEN CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF AUTOED PIECES......the ability of BASICALLY ANYONE being able , or have the potential to fake an auto .....its been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years!


cumulatively....if the t206 forger could have faked 100 or more of these......

100X1000 each card

that's one idiot alone with a pen.......'

think of ten idiots with sharpies and pens.....


it's a scary scenario......

it would suck to have too much vested in autos if their validity is always questioned.......it's terrible how a few can really mess up a great hobby for everyone else.....




the lesson- future autoes should be accompanied with extra "proof" if you will......documentation......extra expert analysis......photos....testimonials....


MORE STUFF!

[mrvster]

just want to make clear.....don't want to offend you in anyway......you are great people....and when I said "get defensive" ....I felt your pain many years ago with scrap... when you pour so much time and energy into collecting something, it is discouraging as a few individuals can ruin or least worsen values and question items because of their stupidity and greed....

years ago that guy pat tried to pass off an overprint bar on an old mill scrap...wonka, jim, tim, and a bunch of other guys busted him....scraps have always been under intense scrutiny since.....with multiple expert opinions on each card.....I would make sure mine were 100 percent before picking up or trading for them....it scared the shit out of all of us.....since then, we have all been on super lookout for anything error/variation or scraps that were questionable......since then , the scraps cooled off due to a niche market and about 25 big collectors getting out of the hobby....

so, I know how it feels.....what I collectied was always under the micro scope(errors, scraps)......I shifted my focus and started with cobbs and always loved the rare backs too.....I still collect scraps, but are very cautious on what I pick up or trade for.....it's easy to differentiate for me now if anything looks scetch..and now I can tell pretty easily....


anyway, I have a lot of other friends/collectors who have huge auto collections....cards....memo...ect....they are not happy about the recent t206 forgeries....just brings back into light how easy it is to forge an auto, and pretty easy to slip by graders....

this has huge implications.....kinda opens the floodgates on the abundance of autoed pieces questionability of "is it really legit?"

these t206 forgeries, unfortunately, are probably just the tip of the ice berg

probably runs ramped in the auto world.....just scary, because I have a few friends who are heavily vested in autos....


sucks.....

[Republicaninmass]

I can understand, but they are many more doctored cards in holders than fake autos that have slipped by TPGs. I don't see people running away from high end cards. In fact TPGs exist almost solely out of the fraud , and over grading that ran rampant in the hobby.

I was just picking on scraps and missing ink to make a point regarding t206s. What about rebacked cards, etc etc.

[mrvster]

I hear you my man! what a mess


you are great people

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by mrvster

I hear you my man! what a mess


you are great people

The hobby survived “Operation Bullpen” which was an absolute nightmare w/regard to the weeding out many fake autographs. Coming back extremely strong to realize incredible pricing points on high end autographs. This T206 mess is a “molecule” compared to those prior issues, and with all due respect, the autograph collecting industry will once again brush aside this blip. Simply stated, that IS the most likely scenario. Happy New Year!

[oldjudge]

I think many of us can determine whether the cards that we collect are trimmed or rebacked. I know I can. However, I think very few if any of us can definitively say if an autograph on a card is genuine or forged. Therefore, unless I see the player signing the card, or it has impeccable provenance, I will stay away, far, far away.