N403 Yum Yum Welch Pitching

[Fred]

Eric, in this case it's an albumen photo adhered to stock.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by Fred

Eric, in this case it's an albumen photo adhered to stock.

Right.

[oldjudge]

Leon-Bring it to the National. I will be able to tell you if it's good.

[benjulmag]

What book did it fall out of? I ask because the more information one has as to how it was stored, the more intelligent the assessment one can make as to whether the paper/ink composition of the book pages could cause an albumen photo to deteriorate that way. An experienced paper/photo conservator armed with such info might be able to provide additional insights.

[yomass]

I have quite a few Yum Yums. I went through them and while the vast majority of the line drawings look like the Welch on the right, I did find one that resembles the one on the left.
It is a Fogarty. Most of the players have one line drawing pose, but this is a second line drawing pose for Fogarty (Leon's Welch is a second line drawing pose for him as well).
The toning is the key difference, perhaps due to a different quality of paper stock?

[Leon]

A larger scan of the Welch before grading. However, this or a 10x, is not what helped BVG make their final determination, from what I know. There were a few factors but science was the first one. And that bar was passed when it was determined this is, according to BVG, an albumen photo of a wood engraving, which is what these are supposed to be. They put it under a microscope and saw the albumen hairs under the "dirt" on the front. The dirt isn't really on the card as much as it is part of it.
There are also hairs that are split where the deterioration is. These were some of the things they mentioned to me about it in grading it the way they did.
Then we should also look at how and why this would have been done for fraudulent reasons. As far as anyone I have spoken with, including this board, no one can recall a fake albumen vintage baseball card. There might be one but I haven't heard of it yet.
Also, this particular photo has some different nuances than the one in the LOC. For there to be a fake you would think there had to be one it was made from? Unless we are to think the "scammer" bookseller, who owns a brick and mortar shop, took an albumen photo of a wood engraving this would have been made from, found old paper, then printed it and distressed it to the way it looks. Then after that offer it for under 2k( but close to it)?

I thought it was good from my first feel test of it. Everything just checked out with the sellers story and the rest of the info.

[benjulmag]

Leon,

Did you ask SGC why they concluded the card is a counterfeit? They would be my grading company of choice for a card such as this, and I'd be interested to learn the basis for their conclusion.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Leon

A larger scan of the Welch before grading. However, this or a 10x, is not what helped BVG make their final determination, from what I know. There were a few factors but science was the first one. And that bar was passed when it was determined this is, according to BVG, an albumen photo of a wood engraving, which is what these are supposed to be. They put it under a microscope and saw the albumen hairs under the "dirt" on the front. The dirt isn't really on the card as much as it is part of it.
There are also hairs that are split where the deterioration is. These were some of the things they mentioned to me about it in grading it the way they did.
Then we should also look at how and why this would have been done for fraudulent reasons. As far as anyone I have spoken with, including this board, no one can recall a fake albumen vintage baseball card. There might be one but I haven't heard of it yet.
Also, this particular photo has some different nuances than the one in the LOC. For there to be a fake you would think there had to be one it was made from? Unless we are to think the "scammer" bookseller, who owns a brick and mortar shop, took an albumen photo of a wood engraving this would have been made from, found old paper, then printed it and distressed it to the way it looks. Then after that offer it for under 2k( but close to it)?

I thought it was good from my first feel test of it. Everything just checked out with the sellers story and the rest of the info.

FYI, there have been numerous attempts at counterfeiting Old Judge cards in the past. We have a separate chapter on it in our book. I agree with Corey, why don’t you talk to Dave and ask him to take a look at the card. If he thinks it is good I would guess that SGC would regrade it.

[Leon]

Thanks Ricard...

...and this bump is for Jay (*hey Jay) since you asked.

Seems a second line drawing pose might be something concerning the registration....

Originally Posted by yomass

I have quite a few Yum Yums. I went through them and while the vast majority of the line drawings look like the Welch on the right, I did find one that resembles the one on the left.
It is a Fogarty. Most of the players have one line drawing pose, but this is a second line drawing pose for Fogarty (Leon's Welch is a second line drawing pose for him as well).
The toning is the key difference, perhaps due to a different quality of paper stock?

[BeanTown]

Great card Leon and will be looking forward to the auction its in.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Leon

Thanks Ricard...

...and this bump is for Jay (*hey Jay) since you asked.

Seems a second line drawing pose might be something concerning the registration....

Albumen photos are photos, there's no registration involved.