Not the only Hall of Fame getting Watered Down

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

You would never have said this to Lemmy if he were still alive.

Sure I would have. Lemmy actually originally played for this other group I'm referring to, and wrote and performed "Motorhead" while he was with them. I believe even he agreed that it was while he with this original group that he really developed and learned how to play and perform to became the musician and performer he ended up being once he formed Motorhead the group. If I remember correctly, he ended up getting caught/arrested going from the U.S. into Canada for drugs, and because of that along with a lot of other erratic behavior he exhibited at the time, this original group ended up just replacing him. Kind of/sort of like what happened between Ozzy and Sabbath to some extent I guess.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by BobC

Sure I would have. Lemmy actually originally played for this other group I'm referring to, and wrote and performed "Motorhead" while he was with them. I believe even he agreed that it was while he with this original group that he really developed and learned how to play and perform to became the musician and performer he ended up being once he formed Motorhead the group. If I remember correctly, he ended up getting caught/arrested going from the U.S. into Canada for drugs, and because of that along with a lot of other erratic behavior he exhibited at the time, this original group ended up just replacing him. Kind of/sort of like what happened between Ozzy and Sabbath to some extent I guess.

It is okay to say Hawkwind though considering some of their songs they were not solidly heavy metal. Consider 'Quark, Strangeness and Charm' and 'Spirit of the Age'. Both from the 'Quark...' album. The title song is new wave/Brit pop and 'Spirit' is more electronica. I would consider much of their earlier music psychedelic/electronic.

[drcy]

I'm not just The Cure.

For 'hard' bands, I'd nominate Celtic Frost and Discharge. The best ever metal band and the best punk. Seminal, influential, but probably too real and extreme to ever be considered.

Discharge's Hear Nothing See Nothing Say Nothing (1982) is the greatest extreme music and punk album ever made. In a class of its own. It is one of the most influential albums, whether or not you heard of the band or album and is as fresh and extreme today as it was 36 years ago. "A punk rock landmark if ever there was one, Discharge's Hear Nothing, See Nothing, Say Nothing is one of the most bleak, angry albums to ever grace the underground."-- allmusic

Other deserving punk bands are Black Flag and Dead Kennedys, but I'm sure they laugh at a music HOF.

Duly note that I think the HOF is silly, and do want to see those bands in it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Michael B

It is okay to say Hawkwind though considering some of their songs they were not solidly heavy metal. Consider 'Quark, Strangeness and Charm' and 'Spirit of the Age'. Both from the 'Quark...' album. The title song is new wave/Brit pop and 'Spirit' is more electronica. I would consider much of their earlier music psychedelic/electronic.

Don't disagree, their musical area was more aligned with the psychedelic/electronic format in their early years, of which they were pioneers in that type of genre. I was referring more to regular Rock HOF election than just pure hard/heavy metal hall induction, However, they were known for their live stage shows and presentations, especially in their early years, which was an influence on others to come. Their alignment with other artists and performers with different backgrounds is also well known and they often used various performers and artists coming and going in their shows and tours on a regular basis. For the hard rock side, having Lemmy as your bassist doesn't hurt either, and though they employed a lot of electronics and steered towards a more science fiction/fantasy type them in a lot of their music, based on a lot of what we have today, they could be viewed as being way ahead of their time.

They incorporated a lot of spoken word pieces in their performances, which was a bit unique for the time, and included the use of dancers and other performers on stage that became a well known part of the band and performance itself. They had an Irish performance artist, Stacia, who was built like an Amazon and would perform and dance during their live shows, often just in body paint and either topless or naked otherwise. Again, something kind of unique and possibly the first time being used in rock performances.

Their live shows were legendary and the lighting and such was so well done and orchestrated that the crew handling that work become almost as well known as the band itself in many areas. Can you name any other rock band where the crew were actually known by name, in this case "Liquid Len and the Lensmen"? Also, they were in their early years very much aligned with a popular Sci-fi/Fantasy writer of the time, Michael Moorcock. (Okay guys, be adult regarding the author's last name.) In fact, he actually wrote a full length sci-fi novel that featured the band and its current members at that time as the main characters and protaganists of the book. Who would have thought that a rock bands specific style and form of music would be the only power able to stop certain evil powers set to take over the Earth!?!?!? Can you name me any other rock bands that have had that done? I know the Beatles had their early movies, and later on MTV brought out the videos, but any actual novels written about any performers not as a documentary/biographical type works?

There may be by now, 40+ years later, but certainly not before Hawkwind as this is going back to the 70's. Also, they were more well known as a British group, another reason they aren't mainstream and popular here in the U.S. And they were not really that concerned with being big stars and making lots of money. They were well known for performing in free festivals and virtually anywhere someone would let them play. They were also very fluid in the members and genres they incorporated over the years, which is also another reason they probably don't get the due they deserve from their early years. There is virtually one person, Dave Brock, who has been the sole constant member and driving force behind the group till today. What with the ever-changing lineups and infinite re-mixes of songs and styles over the years, the musical course of the group has constantly changed over the decades. Which is another element that doesn't necessarily endear the group to the multitude of average rock fans who like to see the same group, same members, same songs, done the same way, etc., over the years. If you were to see them perform in recent years, they couldn't/wouldn't sound or necessarily perform anywhere near like what they did 40+ years earlier. Meanwhile, if someone goes to see Sir Paul McCartney perform today and he includes "Hey Jude" in the show, I'll bet my last dollar it is going to sound pretty much like it did when the Beatles released it back in the 60s. So those folks today get to hear the near same exact song people first heard in the 60s, which helps to continue the legend, the memories, and so on, and bring new fans to McCartneys camp that weren't alive to have heard the Beatles when they first hit the scene. That is another element that deals with the elevating of some person/group to HOF status in my opinion. So with a group like Hawkwind, if you weren't really into them back then, they didn't do a lot of commercially successful pop type hits for the time that would still resonate with people today, you can't go see a retro tour where they re-do their hits note for note, and you can't attend an epic live performance of their shows with the lights and visual performers they originally had, and thus there isn't really a lot besides their old recordings that people now can listen to get to know and appreciate them. At the time they first were out though, they were definitely innovative and influential in what and how they performed. Considered often as early pioneers in the electronic/psychedelic music genre, and even the early proto-punk movement, with elements of speed and heavy metal here and there as well. They were unique, and I feel deserving of HOF status for their musical contributions, style and influences, not just because of how many records they sold, as that never really seemed to be their main focus. The group was more the true artist type, caring more about the music than being commercially successful. That, in and of itself, has always got me to appreciate them more than many other groups deemed rock hall worthy. For example, KISS. I'll give KISS credit for appearing in their outfits and their theatrics onstage as rather new and innovative at the time, but their actual music was also kind of bland and simply basic standard rock, just something to be commercially successful and sell records. To me, they are the epitome of the sell out performer only interested in self-promotion and selling records (ie: making money). I'm not saying there is anything wrong with wanting to make money, but lets face it, Kiss, especially Gene Simmons, is almost totally about making the money. The music really isn't that great, the stage show just helped to get them there. And Kiss started not too long after Hawkwind so they operated around the same time frame. If Hawkwind had put more emphasis on just generating basic pop/rock anthems simply to sell records to the common masses like KISS, and included someone who was the ultimate narcissistic person and self-promoter like Gene Simmons to constantly remind people how great they were, a lot more people would know about Hawkwind than they do now and could more likely be considered as big and deserving of HOF status as KISS. But the fact they didn't, and stayed true to the music and their art form over just seeking commercial success is exactly what I think separates and elevates them above others, like KISS!

As a great example, one of the inaugural Rock HOF inductees was Robert Johnson. I'm pretty sure he didn't sell a whole lot of records during his life, at least not like artists of today. Never really made much money or became famous when he lived, but is definitely deserving. I'm not saying Hawkwind is on his level of contribution to rock music, but they sure added a lot more to it than KISS ever did!

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by BobC

Don't disagree, their musical area was more aligned with the psychedelic/electronic format in their early years, of which they were pioneers in that type of genre. I was referring more to regular Rock HOF election than just pure hard/heavy metal hall induction, However, they were known for their live stage shows and presentations, especially in their early years, which was an influence on others to come. Their alignment with other artists and performers with different backgrounds is also well known and they often used various performers and artists coming and going in their shows and tours on a regular basis. For the hard rock side, having Lemmy as your bassist doesn't hurt either, and though they employed a lot of electronics and steered towards a more science fiction/fantasy type them in a lot of their music, based on a lot of what we have today, they could be viewed as being way ahead of their time.

They incorporated a lot of spoken word pieces in their performances, which was a bit unique for the time, and included the use of dancers and other performers on stage that became a well known part of the band and performance itself. They had an Irish performance artist, Stacia, who was built like an Amazon and would perform and dance during their live shows, often just in body paint and either topless or naked otherwise. Again, something kind of unique and possibly the first time being used in rock performances.

Their live shows were legendary and the lighting and such was so well done and orchestrated that the crew handling that work become almost as well known as the band itself in many areas. Can you name any other rock band where the crew were actually known by name, in this case "Liquid Len and the Lensmen"? Also, they were in their early years very much aligned with a popular Sci-fi/Fantasy writer of the time, Michael Moorcock. (Okay guys, be adult regarding the author's last name.) In fact, he actually wrote a full length sci-fi novel that featured the band and its current members at that time as the main characters and protaganists of the book. Who would have thought that a rock bands specific style and form of music would be the only power able to stop certain evil powers set to take over the Earth!?!?!? Can you name me any other rock bands that have had that done? I know the Beatles had their early movies, and later on MTV brought out the videos, but any actual novels written about any performers not as a documentary/biographical type works?

There may be by now, 40+ years later, but certainly not before Hawkwind as this is going back to the 70's. Also, they were more well known as a British group, another reason they aren't mainstream and popular here in the U.S. And they were not really that concerned with being big stars and making lots of money. They were well known for performing in free festivals and virtually anywhere someone would let them play. They were also very fluid in the members and genres they incorporated over the years, which is also another reason they probably don't get the due they deserve from their early years. There is virtually one person, Dave Brock, who has been the sole constant member and driving force behind the group till today. What with the ever-changing lineups and infinite re-mixes of songs and styles over the years, the musical course of the group has constantly changed over the decades. Which is another element that doesn't necessarily endear the group to the multitude of average rock fans who like to see the same group, same members, same songs, done the same way, etc., over the years. If you were to see them perform in recent years, they couldn't/wouldn't sound or necessarily perform anywhere near like what they did 40+ years earlier. Meanwhile, if someone goes to see Sir Paul McCartney perform today and he includes "Hey Jude" in the show, I'll bet my last dollar it is going to sound pretty much like it did when the Beatles released it back in the 60s. So those folks today get to hear the near same exact song people first heard in the 60s, which helps to continue the legend, the memories, and so on, and bring new fans to McCartneys camp that weren't alive to have heard the Beatles when they first hit the scene. That is another element that deals with the elevating of some person/group to HOF status in my opinion. So with a group like Hawkwind, if you weren't really into them back then, they didn't do a lot of commercially successful pop type hits for the time that would still resonate with people today, you can't go see a retro tour where they re-do their hits note for note, and you can't attend an epic live performance of their shows with the lights and visual performers they originally had, and thus there isn't really a lot besides their old recordings that people now can listen to get to know and appreciate them. At the time they first were out though, they were definitely innovative and influential in what and how they performed. Considered often as early pioneers in the electronic/psychedelic music genre, and even the early proto-punk movement, with elements of speed and heavy metal here and there as well. They were unique, and I feel deserving of HOF status for their musical contributions, style and influences, not just because of how many records they sold, as that never really seemed to be their main focus. The group was more the true artist type, caring more about the music than being commercially successful. That, in and of itself, has always got me to appreciate them more than many other groups deemed rock hall worthy. For example, KISS. I'll give KISS credit for appearing in their outfits and their theatrics onstage as rather new and innovative at the time, but their actual music was also kind of bland and simply basic standard rock, just something to be commercially successful and sell records. To me, they are the epitome of the sell out performer only interested in self-promotion and selling records (ie: making money). I'm not saying there is anything wrong with wanting to make money, but lets face it, Kiss, especially Gene Simmons, is almost totally about making the money. The music really isn't that great, the stage show just helped to get them there. And Kiss started not too long after Hawkwind so they operated around the same time frame. If Hawkwind had put more emphasis on just generating basic pop/rock anthems simply to sell records to the common masses like KISS, and included someone who was the ultimate narcissistic person and self-promoter like Gene Simmons to constantly remind people how great they were, a lot more people would know about Hawkwind than they do now and could more likely be considered as big and deserving of HOF status as KISS. But the fact they didn't, and stayed true to the music and their art form over just seeking commercial success is exactly what I think separates and elevates them above others, like KISS!

As a great example, one of the inaugural Rock HOF inductees was Robert Johnson. I'm pretty sure he didn't sell a whole lot of records during his life, at least not like artists of today. Never really made much money or became famous when he lived, but is definitely deserving. I'm not saying Hawkwind is on his level of contribution to rock music, but they sure added a lot more to it than KISS ever did!

KISS has made so many great songs. I have been listening to them since 1977 and many songs I would guess I have heard 1000 times and they never get old. KISS is the Babe Ruth of the R&R HOF.

[Fred]

Let's get ready to rumble......

Lot's of opinions of who's who in the rock n' roll HOF. Since this is a baseball card board does anyone have an opinion on who is the Babe Ruth of the Rock n Roll Music HOF (RRHOF)? Are the Beatles the Babe Ruth of the RRHOF? Good argument for that - Ruth was an idol in the US as were the Beatles. Both blazed a trail, Ruth in baseball, Beatles in music.


Here's the list of the first inductees to the RRHOF:

• Buddy Holly
  
• Chuck Berry
• Elvis Presley
• Fats Domino
• James Brown
• Jerry Lee Lewis
• Little Richard
• Ray Charles
• Sam Cooke
• Everly Brothers

There's hardly any mention of these guys in this thread..... did the RRHOF get it wrong on the first inductees? The Beatles didn't even make it to the third year and Zep wasn't inducted until the doors had been opened for 10 years.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fred

Let's get ready to rumble......

Lot's of opinions of who's who in the rock n' roll HOF. Since this is a baseball card board does anyone have an opinion on who is the Babe Ruth of the Rock n Roll Music HOF (RRHOF)? Are the Beatles the Babe Ruth of the RRHOF? Good argument for that - Ruth was an idol in the US as were the Beatles. Both blazed a trail, Ruth in baseball, Beatles in music.


Here's the list of the first inductees to the RRHOF:

• Buddy Holly
  
• Chuck Berry
• Elvis Presley
• Fats Domino
• James Brown
• Jerry Lee Lewis
• Little Richard
• Ray Charles
• Sam Cooke
• Everly Brothers

There's hardly any mention of these guys in this thread..... did the RRHOF get it wrong on the first inductees? The Beatles didn't even make it to the third year and Zep wasn't inducted until the doors had been opened for 10 years.

To be eligible for the Rock n Roll Hof, the artist must have made their first commercial recording at least 25 years earlier. The HOF opened in 1986, so the Beatles weren't eligible until 1988.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

Let's get ready to rumble......

Lot's of opinions of who's who in the rock n' roll HOF. Since this is a baseball card board does anyone have an opinion on who is the Babe Ruth of the Rock n Roll Music HOF (RRHOF)? Are the Beatles the Babe Ruth of the RRHOF? Good argument for that - Ruth was an idol in the US as were the Beatles. Both blazed a trail, Ruth in baseball, Beatles in music.


Here's the list of the first inductees to the RRHOF:

• Buddy Holly
  
• Chuck Berry
• Elvis Presley
• Fats Domino
• James Brown
• Jerry Lee Lewis
• Little Richard
• Ray Charles
• Sam Cooke
• Everly Brothers

There's hardly any mention of these guys in this thread..... did the RRHOF get it wrong on the first inductees? The Beatles didn't even make it to the third year and Zep wasn't inducted until the doors had been opened for 10 years.

You did not also mention the inductees who went in back in 1986 under the "Early Influences" moniker. Jimmy Rodgers, Jim Yancey and Robert Johnson. I did make mention of Robert Johnson in reference to his not having really sold a lot of records or having a long and illustrious career. But the innovations he came up with and the trends he started by his at that time style and ability, and unquestionable. Not too mention the mythical status he holds as to the way he supposedly gained those abilities and the impact that legend has had on the music and performers over these many years, and still does. I was pointing this out earlier in reference to how being worth of rock hall status should not rest solely on record sales alone.

And of the rock hall inductees in that inaugural group, I know there are a multitude of people who crowned Presley the King, and would claim he is the Babe Ruth of Rock and Roll. But he was always more of a country crooner if you really listen to his music and style. If you want to look at it from a purist standpoint and literally think of the term Rock-n-Roll, the true Babe Ruth is Chuck Berry. His original performances and electric guitar playing and ability were the cornerstone for what we came to believe was the essence of a rock and roll band. The Beatles, Stones, Yardbirds, Zeppelin, even KISS, and so many other rock groups and performers are more aligned with and developed along the lines of Chuck Berry and his musical style and talents than ever did from Elvis. Don't get me wrong, Elvis is great, but Chuck Berry is/was the standard for true, pure rock-n-roll.

And along those same lines, how the hell did they make Les Paul wait until 1988 to get in the rock hall, and even worse, 1992 for Leo Fender? Whenever you hear people discussing rock-n-roll, at the very mention of the electric guitar, which is to me the cornerstone of rock-n-roll music and the only true sound/instrument that defined it and set it apart from every previous music style and form, there are only two names that deserve to be on that Mount Rushmore - Gibson Les Paul and Fender Stratocaster. Period!!!!

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

KISS has made so many great songs. I have been listening to them since 1977 and many songs I would guess I have heard 1000 times and they never get old. KISS is the Babe Ruth of the R&R HOF.

I don't knock anyone's taste in music and am glad you truly enjoy KISS music and songs. But a lot of people/groups over the years wrote and performed a multitude of songs that people enjoy and like. So there's nothing overly special about having done that that automatically should gain them entrance to the rock hall. But a lot of these performers write and perform their music simply to appease the likes of the masses at that time and don't really do anything different or innovative to advance or expand their musical talents and abilities, or that of the music profession itself. They simply figure out the current formula of what sells, what gimmick gets people to buy tickets to see them, and then they exploit that to the Nth degree. That in my opinion is the type of group KISS is. I never said I don't also like some of their music, just that it isn't anything really special, innovative, new, mind-blowing, whatever you want to call it. They got the formula down to create songs people liked and came up with the additional hook surrounding their makeup and costumes, and then exploited that till, well they still are to this day.

In retrospect, look at groups like the Beatles. Their early albums had a very definite, clean sound. But they weren't happy just performing the same simple songs over and over and took chances and experimented and delved into new sounds and techniques that frankly helped change the face of rock music forever. KISS music has always followed the same pattern and sounded pretty much the same. They just keep following the formula of what sells for them, which is great. Not knocking consistency, just pointing out how they never really took any chances and changed how they were to expand their own musical abilities and horizons, and how they haven't really influenced anyone else either. They just were popular enough to sell a lot of records, but I don't see anything overly special in them to distinguish them enough from a lot of other groups/performers to be in the hall, besides having sold a lot of records and having a very loyal and dedicated core base of fans that like their music and sound.

Now you have lots of other groups that also tried to jump on the bandwagon of just doing what was popular to keep selling records. Look back at some of the performers who experimented with doing disco type songs when that craze was popular for a period of time. You going to tell me that those groups that suddenly changed their style to create s few disco sounding songs weren't doing it just for the sales and money?

By the way, KISS is not the Babe Ruth of rock and roll. I wouldn't even make them any higher than maybe the bat boy on that team. And I have listened to them over the years and seen them perform live, they aren't deserving of that title. But if to your musical likes and taste the rate that, then good for you, I;'m glad you like them and can enjoy them that much.

By the way, as such a big fan, have you been on one of KISS' sponsored cruises ever?

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't knock anyone's taste in music and am glad you truly enjoy KISS music and songs. But a lot of people/groups over the years wrote and performed a multitude of songs that people enjoy and like. So there's nothing overly special about having done that that automatically should gain them entrance to the rock hall. But a lot of these performers write and perform their music simply to appease the likes of the masses at that time and don't really do anything different or innovative to advance or expand their musical talents and abilities, or that of the music profession itself. They simply figure out the current formula of what sells, what gimmick gets people to buy tickets to see them, and then they exploit that to the Nth degree. That in my opinion is the type of group KISS is. I never said I don't also like some of their music, just that it isn't anything really special, innovative, new, mind-blowing, whatever you want to call it. They got the formula down to create songs people liked and came up with the additional hook surrounding their makeup and costumes, and then exploited that till, well they still are to this day.

In retrospect, look at groups like the Beatles. Their early albums had a very definite, clean sound. But they weren't happy just performing the same simple songs over and over and took chances and experimented and delved into new sounds and techniques that frankly helped change the face of rock music forever. KISS music has always followed the same pattern and sounded pretty much the same. They just keep following the formula of what sells for them, which is great. Not knocking consistency, just pointing out how they never really took any chances and changed how they were to expand their own musical abilities and horizons, and how they haven't really influenced anyone else either. They just were popular enough to sell a lot of records, but I don't see anything overly special in them to distinguish them enough from a lot of other groups/performers to be in the hall, besides having sold a lot of records and having a very loyal and dedicated core base of fans that like their music and sound.

Now you have lots of other groups that also tried to jump on the bandwagon of just doing what was popular to keep selling records. Look back at some of the performers who experimented with doing disco type songs when that craze was popular for a period of time. You going to tell me that those groups that suddenly changed their style to create s few disco sounding songs weren't doing it just for the sales and money?

By the way, KISS is not the Babe Ruth of rock and roll. I wouldn't even make them any higher than maybe the bat boy on that team. And I have listened to them over the years and seen them perform live, they aren't deserving of that title. But if to your musical likes and taste the rate that, then good for you, I;'m glad you like them and can enjoy them that much.

By the way, as such a big fan, have you been on one of KISS' sponsored cruises ever?

KISS has sold over 100 million albums. They have sold probably more merchandise than any other band in the history of rock and roll. They have more Gold albums than any other American rock band. They totally revolutionized the live concert; no band ever worked harder onstage to put on a great show for their fans. If you read interviews of many younger musicians, especially in hard rock and metal, they almost always cite KISS as the band that got them into music (some like Dimebag and Vinnie Paul are buried in their Kaskets). They have the most loyal fan club, the KISS Army, of which I have been a member since 1977. Speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't even care about music if it wasn't for them. If they aren't HOFers, I don't know who is.

I've never done the KISS Kruise but I did the Meet and Greet with them in Bridgeport a couple of years back. They were great guys and truly appreciate their fans.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

KISS has sold over 100 million albums. They have sold probably more merchandise than any other band in the history of rock and roll. They have more Gold albums than any other American rock band. They totally revolutionized the live concert; no band ever worked harder onstage to put on a great show for their fans. If you read interviews of many younger musicians, especially in hard rock and metal, they almost always cite KISS as the band that got them into music (some like Dimebag and Vinnie Paul are buried in their Kaskets). They have the most loyal fan club, the KISS Army, of which I have been a member since 1977. Speaking for myself, I probably wouldn't even care about music if it wasn't for them. If they aren't HOFers, I don't know who is.

I've never done the KISS Kruise but I did the Meet and Greet with them in Bridgeport a couple of years back. They were great guys and truly appreciate their fans.

Saw this article online and had to bring it up in regards to KISS. Especially take a look at the comments section about KISS and their musical abilities and so on. And the comment/idea made by Simmons about maybe just hiring new people to wear the makeup and have none of the original members even playing lends to the idea that they were not that original or talented to begin with, just doing something to sell tickets and albums to make money and they could plug in anyone they wanted because the fan base would just keep paying for it. And got to love the comparison to the Kardashian's as drama queens. Soooo not HOF worthy!!!

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