Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

I do have a pretty good idea on how autographs are authenticated. I have been buying and selling them for over 30 years. Some take longer and more study and some take merely a glance. If an autograph expert (let's for fun just say it's an expert) only takes 2 seconds to look at an item, it doesn't mean it's not authentic. You are paying for that unbiased "let's also for fun say they're unbiased" authenticators opinion to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and more confident in purchasing the autograph.

If you bring a Babe Ruth ball and it's clearly not a run of the mill forgery, they are going to take much more time on it. They might even ask multiple people for their opinion as well before giving a letter. BTW, letters are signed in front of a notary public and sent out in the mail. Not "voila" or "poof" or whatever you described.

A person pays the authentication company for their opinion, despite many others opinions who think they should be libel for saying it's authentic. This is done to make the buyer feel confident in their purchase having another party say they also believe the item is authentic. OR the seller who is letting buyers know that there is this third party who also agrees with the sellers opinion of authenticity. Items that come with LOA's from PSA and JSA often, if not all times, fetch more at auction or direct sale than those without.

I know this because I do business with some of these authentication companies as I already described. I sell items and guarantee them to pass or they already come with the authentication. This is to increase my bottom line, no other reason. There are plenty of people who refuse to do business with these companies, but try to get top dollar without playing the TPA game nowadays. It doesn't work. If I get a letter and double my money, guess what, i'm getting the letter or COA.

The issue I have with your comment is that you think there is no process and the amount of time is unsatisfactory to you. If they choose to put one second, one minute, or one hour in to an item, that is their right to do so. They are putting their reputation on the line. If their reputation is damaged, then the market will reflect this and their business will go away after the market corrects.

Lastly, There are WAAAAAAYYYYYY more trimmed and altered cards in PSA and SGC holders than there are fake autographs that are authenticated by PSA and JSA. The card game is far worse than the auto game. People may argue with me all they want, but you will never convince me otherwise. Many, many full time dealers "work" on cards before they are sent off to the TPA. Most pass or pass the next time.

Bottom line, complain all you want about the TPA companies but they serve a purpose and command higher dollar results at the end of the day. I sell autographs and memorabilia to make money, the more the better for me an my family.

I said nothing about trimmed or altered cards. you added that little tid bit to try and deflect from the topic at hand. not applicable here. The authentication game is faulty from the start. first off, where do these "experts" get their training? you will probably never get an answer from any of the TPA on that one. if they did answer the question, they would probably say their experts have years and years and years of experience..... well, where did that experience come from? I believe both Spence and Steve Grad "studied" under everyones favorite, Bill Mastro.

One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes.

It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans

[Duluth Eskimo]

You’re right. I’m trying to deflect because you have me all tied up with your genius ramblings. I’m going to go lay by my dish completely defeated.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

You’re right. I’m trying to deflect because you have me all tied up with your genius ramblings. I’m going to go lay by my dish completely defeated.

sounds good.

[packs]

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

Lots of dummies in this hobby. Lots of dummies in this hobby who seem to want to be fooled. Lots of dummies in this hobby who appoint themselves as experts.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Lots of dummies in this hobby. Lots of dummies in this hobby who seem to want to be fooled. Lots of dummies in this hobby who appoint themselves as experts.

Again to the point of why I don't collect autos. As a kid, the fact that a card was "old" was cool enough for me. Look at this thing that came out of a pack 30, 50, even 75 years ago! At least for items like tobacco cards or Goudeys, it seems a little too good to be true for all of those that are coming out now to have been autographed as well. But to the points made earlier - people get all romanticized about something and can lose reasonable objectivity. I get it.

[Daveyc]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you say it's so easy to make these forgeries? People were fooled for years in some cases. And not just the TPA's, but people who have been in the hobby for a very long time and might consider themselves experts in this very specific area.

there are artists who would not have much problem at all replicating the shaky signatures of men in their 70's and 80's.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Daveyc

I said nothing about trimmed or altered cards. you added that little tid bit to try and deflect from the topic at hand. not applicable here. The authentication game is faulty from the start. first off, where do these "experts" get their training? you will probably never get an answer from any of the TPA on that one. if they did answer the question, they would probably say their experts have years and years and years of experience..... well, where did that experience come from? I believe both Spence and Steve Grad "studied" under everyones favorite, Bill Mastro.

One can have all the experience in the world and it is all worthless if the person they are apprenticed under is not qualified themselves. remember, only perfect practice makes perfect. everything else is just practiced mistakes.

It is relatively easy to create these forgeries, but the "experts" seem to have a much harder time finding them. at some point, collectors at large will realize the "authenticated" signature is nothing more than a piece of paperwork, and really doesnt amount to a hill of beans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbgxFF0SaU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCGxsGelS50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NADYoGCl1Mc

There's a ton of these vids available but as we have seen and learned, likely not many know these are available and should be watched before purchasing anything signed.

[1880nonsports]

or not - your forgeries news links linked to more links and I've already spent an hour looking at them. I bookmarked the Halper one to savor after my gin game...…….

[daves_resale_shop]

Any update on who the culprit(s) are?

[Leon]

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

Any update on who the culprit(s) are?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.

Thanks for the update and I realize you can't divulge too much information, but is it a name we'll recognize?

[Leon]

Thanks for your understanding.
No, it is not a hobby name anyone would know of....I don't believe. At least the auctioneers I have spoken with didn't know the name, as well myself.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks for the update and I realize you can't divulge too much information, but is it a name we'll recognize?

[Jasonxmay]

Next to REA I’ve written the biggest refund check for a single card as I authorized Brian to withhold the $21,000 that I would have received from the sale of the Baker that I had purchased from REA in 2015. I should also add that Brian refunded me for the $9,000 I paid for the card originally, so although I lost $12,000, I’m not out anything. I’ve had two separate people message me with the same information regarding the culprit. The first person wanted me to release the information, but then changed his mind at the request of the investigators. Because I’m an attorney I felt that the communication was confidential and so I did not release it at that time. However, another individual has now asked that I release the information on his behalf and since I see no compelling reason not to I am going to disclose it. I practice exclusively criminal defense and I can guarantee that there is absolutely no legitimate reason that law enforcement would not want this information released. Here is the information I have regarding the identity of the subject/suspect:

eBay ID: givepeaceachance14
eBay location: Girard, OH

Originally Posted by Leon

The parties that have been the most affected know the name and are still working with authorities. I just got off of the phone with one of them and there is no new news so the situation is the same. If someone has some emergency issue, or thinks they have bad signed cards from this same person, they should PM me and we can discuss it. I know some people hate that the name hasn't been made public but as of this moment it's not the most prudent thing, imo, or the opinions of the few people who have had to write refund checks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's not too late to vote for Jason as the #1 Net 54 poster.

[Leon]

There can be no legitimate reason for authorities to say they prefer the info not be made public yet? And you are guaranteeing it. Cool.

According to you, you are out nothing financially and REA is out (a lot more) than you mentioned and this was ok to do? I am glad you aren't out anything as others are. Great move here..

Originally Posted by Jasonxmay

Next to REA I’ve written the biggest refund check for a single card as I authorized Brian to withhold the $21,000 that I would have received from the sale of the Baker that I had purchased from REA in 2015. I should also add that Brian refunded me for the $9,000 I paid for the card originally, so although I lost $12,000, I’m not out anything. I’ve had two separate people message me with the same information regarding the culprit. The first person wanted me to release the information, but then changed his mind at the request of the investigators. Because I’m an attorney I felt that the communication was confidential and so I did not release it at that time. However, another individual has now asked that I release the information on his behalf and since I see no compelling reason not to I am going to disclose it. I practice exclusively criminal defense and I can guarantee that there is absolutely no legitimate reason that law enforcement would not want this information released. Here is the information I have regarding the identity of the subject/suspect:

eBay ID: givepeaceachance14
eBay location: Girard, OH

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Jasonxmay

eBay ID: givepeaceachance14
eBay location: Girard, OH

All I am saying, was John Lennon a forger?

Brian