Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[ejharrington]

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

I would add Bill Mazeroski to your first list and Ted Simmons and Luis Tiant to your second list.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Tinker Evers Schoendienst Slaughter Maranville to first list if not already there.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

You're being very kind - I'm sure most people could double that first list....
Someone (can't remember who) gave me the title of a pretty cool book to read regarding HOF inductions. "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" by Bill James. Note, the book was written in the 90's but really provides great detail on the players elected by the veterans committee. The book can be found relatively cheap on ebay or Amazon. Over 400 pages of a lot of good/fun reading.

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Fred

You're being very kind - I'm sure most people could double that first list....
Someone (can't remember who) gave me the title of a pretty cool book to read regarding HOF inductions. "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" by Bill James. Note, the book was written in the 90's but really provides great detail on the players elected by the veterans committee. The book can be found relatively cheap on ebay or Amazon. Over 400 pages of a lot of good/fun reading.

The last words in the Bill James book (speaking of Rizzuto's enshrinement) are "He won't be the worst player there". The same could be said of Baines.
Unfortunately to build a stairway to heaven you have to have some bottom steps.

[JollyElm]

Add Jeff Kent to that 'should be in' list. Talk about a travesty, how does such an RBI machine second baseman get virtually no support for enshrinement?? Give me a frickin' run producing second sacker like him any day of the week!
(Sure, he played during the steroid era, but there's no hint he was ever involved with juicing and he's always been an outspoken advocate for HGH testing in baseball.)

BA .290
Hits 2,461
HR 377
RBI 1,518

Five time All Star, 2000 NL MVP, 4 Silver Slugger Awards.

[parker1b2]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Add Jeff Kent to that 'should be in' list. Talk about a travesty, how does such an RBI machine second baseman get virtually no support for enshrinement?? Give me a frickin' run producing second sacker like him any day of the week!
(Sure, he played during the steroid era, but there's no hint he was ever involved with juicing and he's always been an outspoken advocate for HGH testing in baseball.)

BA .290
Hits 2,461
HR 377
RBI 1,518

Five time All Star, 2000 NL MVP, 4 Silver Slugger Awards.

+1 for Kent and I would add McGriff also, no hint of PEDs 493 HRs

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by parker1b2

+1 for Kent and I would add McGriff also, no hint of PEDs 493 HRs

It's good you brought up McGriff. Unlike Baines (nothing personal against him, he seems to be a fine man), The Crime Dog was an out and out star during his career, not a second thought sorta guy. He was thought of as a 'potential HOFer' and he had some seriously nice career stats.

[callou2131]

Nick Markakis Is jumping for Joy with the election Of Baines.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

Using WAR, which is what most are arguing for exclusion, Baines is the best player on your exclude list and better than some you left off. I would leave Bottomley and Baines in, but the other 10 are clear mistakes.

From your should be in list, Barnes only played 9 years and 499 games. Bond only played 10 seasons and one he pitched 2 games, another 3. I don't think they played long enough and if they were really famous or popular, they would be in. The other guys I wouldn't have a problem with and there are some other guys you missed like Dick Allen and Ted Simmons.

The Hof has already gone down the road of electing a lot of marginal candidates. I think we are going to see a bunch of those guys who played in the 60s-80s elected by the VC over the next decade.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by rats60

Using WAR, which is what most are arguing for exclusion, Baines is the best player on your exclude list and better than some you left off. I would leave Bottomley and Baines in, but the other 10 are clear mistakes.

From your should be in list, Barnes only played 9 years and 499 games. Bond only played 10 seasons and one he pitched 2 games, another 3. I don't think they played long enough and if they were really famous or popular, they would be in. The other guys I wouldn't have a problem with and there are some other guys you missed like Dick Allen and Ted Simmons.

The Hof has already gone down the road of electing a lot of marginal candidates. I think we are going to see a bunch of those guys who played in the 60s-80s elected by the VC over the next decade.

Good point on Barnes; I excluded Caruthers for that same reason. I would induct Barnes as part of the Pioneer wing along with many of his teammates.

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by rats60

Using WAR, which is what most are arguing for exclusion, Baines is the best player on your exclude list and better than some you left off. I would leave Bottomley and Baines in, but the other 10 are clear mistakes.

From your should be in list, Barnes only played 9 years and 499 games. Bond only played 10 seasons and one he pitched 2 games, another 3. I don't think they played long enough and if they were really famous or popular, they would be in. The other guys I wouldn't have a problem with and there are some other guys you missed like Dick Allen and Ted Simmons.

The Hof has already gone down the road of electing a lot of marginal candidates. I think we are going to see a bunch of those guys who played in the 60s-80s elected by the VC over the next decade.

You are making the mistake of comparing players like Barnes and Bond to players of more recent eras using a measuring stick that doesn't apply. Any player can only fairly be compared to players from his era. The early game was baseball, yet quite different than today. Also, in Barnes defense, he played 5 seasons prior to 1871, the first year of the professional National Association, at the highest levels available at the time. The 10 year rule is not relevant to Barnes, as well as many other players, who played part or all of their careers prior to the start of the professional leagues. These players are the pioneers of baseball and have been neglected by the Hall of Fame, basically, because all or most of the voters have no understanding of the early game and fail to properly evaluate the early players.

[jimjim]

Tony Larussa is off his rocker.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...etractors-weak

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.

If we are selecting people based on stats, Albert Belle should be in, he was better than every player on your second list.

[redalpha7]

Couple of more


List 1

Craig Biggio

List 2

Jim Edmonds
Juan Gonzalez

[Kenny Cole]

This discussion has already made me tired because it doesn't matter at all. They are both in. That isn't going to change. They aren't the worst HOFers, they obviously aren't the best. They are both somewhere in middle of the road and you can argue about where. There are more deserving ballplayers still waiting for the call, there are less deserving ballplayers who have already been voted in. And none of that matters. It is what it is, to use the cliche. Life goes on. What you or I think is completely irrelevant except for purposes of discussions like this.

I do feel bad about the Baines bashing because he did nothing to deserve it and has always been a stand-up guy as best as I can tell. That is completely undeserved and unfortunate. My $.02.

[Chris-Counts]

Once the scoundrel Bud Selig got in, I had to let go of any idealism I had over Hall of Fame selections. In general, though, I'm an open-the-flood-gates kind of guy. The more the merrier. I'm happy with Lee Smith and Harold Baines, who aren't any worse than Jesse Haines, Highpockets Kelly and about a dozen others. Bring on Jim Edmonds, Minnie Minoso, Luis Tiant, Vada Pinson, Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva, Maury Wills, Dick Groat and Lon Warnecke (who has almost the exact same stats as his contemporary, Lefty Gomez). And how about Cecil Travis? He has the third highest average ever for a shortstop, and he fought in the Battle of the Bulge.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This discussion has already made me tired because it doesn't matter at all. They are both in. That isn't going to change. They aren't the worst HOFers, they obviously aren't the best. They are both somewhere in middle of the road and you can argue about where. There are more deserving ballplayers still waiting for the call, there are less deserving ballplayers who have already been voted in. And none of that matters. It is what it is, to use the cliche. Life goes on. What you or I think is completely irrelevant except for purposes of discussions like this.

I do feel bad about the Baines bashing because he did nothing to deserve it and has always been a stand-up guy as best as I can tell. That is completely undeserved and unfortunate. My $.02.

+1

[clydepepper]

The percentage of all players elected should never be a constant except within specific eras.

A vast majority of the total number of MLB players have been active since WWII and we don't need to have the same percentage of players elected now as they did before all the expansions.

IMO, while the talent pool is much larger, expansion has assured that the mean-level talent is actually lower than before.

That's my three(?) cents worth.

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I think the issue is not that there are too many players in the HOF. There are only 228 players in the HOF (excludes Negro Leaguers, Managers, Umpires, and Executives / Pioneers), which is like 1.1% of all the players who ever made the Major Leagues. The issue is not even that there have been some bad selections, which have often been at least partially the result of cronyism. The issue is that it seems the HOF has not corrected the mistakes of the past that resulted in many of these poor selections. Clearly, some of the voters on the committee that voted for Baines should have abstained from voting as they could not possibly claim to be impartial.

For the record, these are the 12 picks out of 228 I think clearly were bad selections:

Ray Schalk - C
Rick Farrell - C
High Pockets Kelly – 1B
Jim Bottomley – 1B
Freddie Lindstrom – 3B
Chick Hafey – LF
Lloyd Waner – CF
Tommy McCarthy – RF
Ross Youngs – RF
Harold Baines – DH
Jesse Haines – P
Rube Marquard – P

These are the players (excluding players still-eligible and PED and banned players) I believe should be selected based on statistics, championships, clutch performance, fame, popularity, and other intangibles, such as who were considered true superstars when they were playing:

Thurman Munson - C
Keith Hernandez – 1B
Don Mattingly – 1B
Gil Hodges – 1B
Steve Garvey – 1B
Lou Whitaker – 2B
Ross Barnes – 2B
Ken Boyer – 3B
Minnie Minoso – LF
Dale Murphy – CF
Roger Maris – RF
Rusty Staub - RF
Tommy Bond – P

I also believe the HOF made a mistake not inducting Buck O’Neill in and should correct it.