Those M114's - When Are We Going To Talk About Them?

[Estwd]

Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Ted Williams is a perfect illustration of what makes this set so maddening.

There are two different Ted poses (that I know of).

With this set, everything is "that we know of", because there isn't really a way to be sure that there isn't another different one.

Speaking just for myself, when I make a statement on this issue, it is based on what I know, or think I know, and I will have no problem being corrected when I am wrong. So, with Ted, when I say there are two different poses, and somebody has a third pose PLEASE post a picture, AND sell it to me. Or, maybe we can trade?

Below are the two Ted poses, I call the one with the stadium background pose #1, and the one on the black background pose #2. My next post will explain how there are seven different Ted Williams posters...

[lumberjack]

Alan,
The auction you are speaking of took place in New York City over two days in September of 1996. Christie's East (I don't believe there has been an "East" for some time), handled the auction. Once in a while, a catalog will turn up on eBay. They are a trip.

The auction was a big deal; the New York Times did a article a week before the sale. This was good publicity for the auction house, but I don't believe they considered this stuff to be classy material. There were about 17 thousand photos in the auction.

Bill Mastro was the big spender on the first day, buying Conlon lots and lots packed with HOFers. He may have spent in the vicinity of 40 thousand dollars. Mr. Mastro was a smart guy and may have had buyers for this stuff when he walked on to the auction floor. There were, maybe, two other big dealers who picked up a disproportionate number of lots. I can think of only one or two private collectors who may have made an imprint.

There had been the Culver sale of Bain photo about 4 years prior to this auction. Sotheby's handled that auction. That was the first time photographs went for big money. That was just a weird auction....


There were no M113 or M114 premiums, but there were about 20 lots of what the auction house called "cover" photos. I have at least one that wasn't mounted, but most were Conlon shots affexed to heavy board.

BB Magazine was around from 1908 into 1955. Between '55 and '65 it was sort of hit and miss.

The last publisher was Earl Noyes of Washington. D.C. His widow was in possession of the photo library until the Christie's sale. She had made attempts to sell the photos, but, until the Christie's auction, had no luck. You have to remember, photographs were of absolutely no value, if you were going to collect baseball memorabilia in those days, it would have been cards or autographs or programs. I have been told there was an asking price of $100,000, which would have constituted a real gamble. Who knows?

Here's the punch line: about three weeks after Christie's hauled out the 17 thousand photos, a pipe flooded the apartment where the pictures had been stored.
lumberjack

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Estwd

Hi Doug,

Did pose #1 come out first - is that the 1939 version?

I'm happy that this thread is back in action...

I do not know, and I'm not sure if it's possible to know which years many of these issues were printed.

Doug

[akleinb611]

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

[Estwd]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

Very helpful, thanks!

Evan

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk

[doug.goodman]

In the spirit of the multiple holidays during the next 10 days, here are the multiple versions of the Archer m113. Among other differences, note the placement of the copyright symbol both under the edge of the picture and to the left of the edge.

Doug "yes, I may be slightly nuts, but different IS different" Goodman

ps - I have fixed my numbering to reflect my agreement with Alan regarding the Williams pictures chronology.

[doug.goodman]

And here are two versions of the O'Toole m113.

Same thing with the copyright placement as the Archer.

Also, note how the second line "The $25,000 Pitcher" isn't as wide in relation to the first line "Marty O'Toole" on the lower scan, only reaching from the "R" in Marty to between the second and third "O"s in O'Toole.

[doug.goodman]

Here are two versions of the Jim Scott m113

[Harford20]

Originally Posted by akleinb611

Hello everyone. To answer the question asked about the two Ted Williams poses, I believe Doug may have accidentally transposed them, chronologically speaking. The Ted Williams pose showing a very young Williams against a dark background was issued in 1939. There is no way to know precisely when your copy might have been printed, as the M114's were kept in print and were periodically reprinted, until they weren't. There seems to have been frequent tinkering with the typesetting on the captions, which is where Doug's incredibly precise collecting efforts come in, but I don't believe anyone is in a position to know the year or years each caption type was issued.

So, to summarize, the Williams pose with the dark background was FIRST issued in 1939 and was probably reprinted and made available through 1948 or even early 1949. The second pose, showing a stadium background, was first offered in 1949, probably late I the year, and was undoubtedly available until the magazine when under. A "New York" caption line would have been available at least through 1954, perhaps later until the stock ran out. A "Washington D.C." caption line would have to post-date the magazine's sale to a DC - area publisher, which I believe took place in 1954 or 1955. The last "regular" issue of the magazine came out in 1956, but apparently the premiums were still being produced for another year or so. No word on whether the 1964-65 revival made the earlier premiums available.

There. I hope that's as clear as mud...

ALSO Quote from doug.goodman
So, I just posted the two Ted Williams poses, here are the 5 print variations of Pose #2. The DC difference is obvious, but the other 4 are more subtle. I need to learn how to use photoshop so that I can put those 4 in one picture and note the differences. They are subtle, but they are there. Notice the placement of the text versus the designs in the grass and the edges of the picture. Different printings, in my opinion.

Alan, perfect!
Doug, last month, finally picked up my 7th variation for Ted Williams (as you had posted last year--2 versions of the 1939 and 5 versions of the 1949). I agree, in looking at these versions side-by-side, I also believe each is a different print-run, and likely once yearly from 1949 through 1954/55.

I also saw that you picked up another Joe D. variation; will have to keep a look-out for those Ted variations that have not been found yet.

Dave

[doug.goodman]

Here are the three more large sized 1957 poster scans :

Missing only Frank House and Al Kaline...

[doug.goodman]

With thanx to the most recent Huggins & Scott auction, I have added 4 more m114s to my collection (1036 total) with one of them being a previously unseen (at least by me) Mantle pose. That gives him three different issued poses, that I am aware of.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Congrats to whoever picked up this m114 Willie Mays tonight on ebay, those don't come up very often, and even though it's beat up, I thought the price was pretty good.

I picked up the Rosen for $2.24 instead.

If anybody reading this picked up the group of 15 for $82, I would be interested in the Robin Roberts that was included.

Doug