Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Maybe I misinterpreted him on the McBride, but I thought he meant that those were all good, and this card is clean because if its provenance.

That may be but either way, the idea that people weren't forging signatures before 2007 is crazy. In every "find" there is a gap in the chain of custody which we fill in with hope, greed or some other sin. The values of these cards will reflect reality now, not hope.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That may be but either way, the idea that people weren't forging signatures before 2007 is crazy. In every "find" there is a gap in the chain of custody which we fill in with hope, greed or some other sin. The values of these cards will reflect reality now, not hope.

Was there a lot of interest in Snowgrass, Doyle and others back in 2007 to warrant forgeries?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jad22

Was there a lot of interest in Snowgrass, Doyle and others back in 2007 to warrant forgeries?

I wish it was as simple as using common sense here. That if there was little interest in a signed card it would be more likely to be real. Makes sense, except as we've learned, many forgeries are on small ticket items instead of the Babe Ruths. And it's not like autograph forgeries are a relatively new phenomenon. Remember, the $20 bill is the most counterfeited bill in the US, not the $50 or $100 bill.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I wish it was as simple as using common sense here. That if there was little interest in a signed card it would be more likely to be real. Makes sense, except as we've learned, many forgeries are on small ticket items instead of the Babe Ruths. And it's not like autograph forgeries are a relatively new phenomenon. Remember, the $20 bill is the most counterfeited bill in the US, not the $50 or $100 bill.

Great point Jeff! Plus, I can say with 100% certainty that the major Authenticators place much more emphasis, time and due diligence on the Ruth’s, Cobb’s, Gehrig’s, Mathewson’s, etc. The TPG’s exemplar files for the major HOFs are so much more extensive from both a “good” vs. “bad” perspective. It’s much more difficult to pull off “fraud” on the higher-end scripts. Of course, this does not excuse them from not doing their homework on any autographs. When I purchase a valuable autograph, while I certainly need a respectable LOA, I always use my own common sense and expertise before pulling the trigger.

[uniship]

Are we ever going to learn the name of this asshole forger?

[sgbernard]

Originally Posted by uniship

Are we ever going to learn the name of this asshole forger?

Ha, I know! I keep checking the thread, the suspense is killing me!

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by uniship

Are we ever going to learn the name of this asshole forger?

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

I wouldn't expect AHs to give up names, but given the seriousness of the situation I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect them to make a statement about their assessment of and intended response to the problem. That doesn't seem too much to ask, does it? Perhaps it's too soon, but hopefully that will be forthcoming. They certainly are not shy in general about communicating.

[mantlefan]

Originally Posted by uniship

Are we ever going to learn the name of this asshole forger?

Not likely on this site Eric. Instead of being given the chance to check our collections to see if we have any dealings with this douche, we're told to be patient.

[RedsFan1941]

simmer down. there are things that are of more importance than the typical net 54 mob extracting its pound of flesh. you have gone a couple years not knowing this forger or forgers existed. is it really going to kill you to wait a few more days or even a week?

[painthistorian]

In response to Frank & others, Leon made it clear on an earlier post, I will gladly explain why public posting is not prudent at this time:

#1- This criminal activity is being handled by legal authorities and they will be better in finding the actual leaders and forgers if we do not allow the perpetrators to crawl back under their rocks, which may have occurred anyway since none of us initially realized the extent of this criminal activity.
#2-I do not know the name of the specific buyer of my Baker card, I do know the location, but there is enough info already out there to know the autograph hobby has severe vulnerabilities and your "dealings" were probably not with this guy anyway. The behind the scenes group that used various people to swindle grading services and authenticators are sophisticated and intentional, if you bought authenticated signed items, you should really care to wait until the investigations are done and its best to leave specifics off public forums in order to actually GET THIS RESOLVED which everyone in the hobby will benefit from.
#3-EVERYONE THAT CARES ABOUT THIS HOBBY, as a collector, dealer, authenticator or grading service knows that this forgery association has infiltrated certain high end items, not just common autographs and luckily manny(set builder) figured the tip of the iceberg out initially and there are now many people that care and are knowledgeable involved...THIS SITUATION is a toxic poison that must be RID of so its in everyone's best interest to stick together and educate yourselves. Most of those fake T206's are not even that good, but good enough to pass authentication so everyone needs to re learn the wheel and pray the good guys get these poisonous vermon. Also WATCH the video that Manny has posted on the net54 boards just recently, if you can see how amazing this one artist is with a pen, then imagine worldwide how many artists have the talent to reproduce a signature.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by mantlefan

Not likely on this site Eric. Instead of being given the chance to check our collections to see if we have any dealings with this douche, we're told to be patient.

Actually, it is likely just not yet. There are things happening behind the scenes and it has been asked to not make the info public yet. Most of the people who have been working on this know the IDs so they aren't completely being kept secret. The info is just not being made public due to ongoing investigations.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That may be but either way, the idea that people weren't forging signatures before 2007 is crazy. In every "find" there is a gap in the chain of custody which we fill in with hope, greed or some other sin. The values of these cards will reflect reality now, not hope.

People have been forging signatures on T206 cards since they were packing them with tobacco products. Through the mail autographs suffer from a chain of custody issue to be sure. I just happen to believe that the Pittsburgh Find cards have the some of the best provenance you can find if you choose to collect signed T206s. I am now going back over all of my emails from 2007 and piecing together as much additional corroborative circumstantial evidence as possible. I’ll publish it and let people believe what they want to believe.

If you have cards from the Great Pittsburgh Find, the Morey collection, or the recent Steiner Auction that you would like to sell now, please let me know.

[slightlyrounded]

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

I think this is definitely possible, but from I’ve seen people don’t want to pay for the cost a service like this would cost. Think about how much complaining is done about a $20 grading fee.

[slightlyrounded]

The irony is this type of authentication could be much less expensive.

Edit: should add I’m referring to authentication specifically against a “known universe” and not determining if a card is real more broadly

[drcy]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

Also realize that too many collectors and dealers don't seriously care about authenticity. They just want a label or certificate to facilitate resale. Many people on the PSA registry don't care really care if their cards have been altered or misgraded. They only care about the number on the label.

I'm not an autograph person, but my friend is a serious and learned one. He does his own research and studies before, during and after buying-- and will agree and disagree with TPA verdicts--, but also knows the LOAs are useful for resale because many buyers go strictly by the TPA LOA. I also imagine that he thinks it useful to have someone else's (TPA) opinion on an autograph, even if he sometimes disagrees.

[topcat61]

The forger is one thing, but how about holding these auction houses and grading companies feet to the fire. Who are the authenticators, what are their qualifications and how much time are they spending on authenticating these signatures?

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

Cost. And known database pictures only go back 15 years and don’t begin to touch live sales at shows and stores and in private. This extra service would add little.