Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by conor912

It is my understanding that Manny found these in minutes through a simple search. For $XXX, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect 10 minutes of online research into a particular card.

10min per item would time out to only 48 items certed per day per 8hr shift or 240 items per week. Considering all the slabs and certs these companies churn out, do you really think most TPAs are spending 10min per item? If they are who is actually doing all the certing? Are the name people at PSA working 30hrs a day? If not, who is doing it? What are their qualifications outside of having a big computer exemplar file?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

do you really think most TPAs are spending 10min per item?

No, I don't. Which is what got them into this mess.

Originally Posted by Lordstan

What are their qualifications outside of having a big computer exemplar file?

That, sir, is a great question.

[whitey19thcentury]

People have touched on the fact that all of these other signed tobacco issue cards and Goudeys that have hit the market over the past couple of years deserve scrutiny, but has anyone raised an eyebrow over the sudden influx of signed 1952 Topps cards that seemingly are in every auction now, too?

[T206Collector]

Here’s another one for the investigation team. Sold on eBay last summer, an American Beauty backed signed Livingston on the reverse. Thoughts on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Paddy-...-/362320695143

Better res pics available here:

https://imgur.com/2zaWcwy

https://imgur.com/nLJ87Wc

[HobokenJon]

Thoughts, yes. It’s slabbed with no affirmative evidence of authenticity. It’s thus presumed fraudulent until demonstrated convincingly otherwise. The slab has negative value because it precludes a knowledgeable third party from conducting a proper examination, including testing the ink, which on its face looks awfully suspicious in its boldness. At least the person who signed it or programmed the auto-pen knew that Livingston’s name was misspelled on the front of the card.

[painthistorian]

Hello everyone....I am very appalled about seeing a guy who bought a card from us in Feb 2015 and now probably used this card to forge Home Run Baker's name. I saw the screenshot that was provided on this topic and spent two hours looking up the feedback left for us in date order over last three years thru e bay and we have his e bay ID..I do not have any paperwork left from 2015 since we moved to a smaller location after the sale of my home but I matched up the e bay item # to the feedback left and it MATCHES EXACTLY....I will not post this name(ID) publicly but I will provide this information to any attorney that is representing these collectors that got burned, I am positive I have his e bay ID and transaction # thru e bay and I want to be careful here. If Adam Warshaw, Jeff Lichtman or another lawyer can tell me how I can provide this info without violating any privacy laws, I want to help the hobby rid someone who forges. I personally was burned by a So. California Rock N Roll album vendor who is now deceased and her operation was a huge scandal, I lost a lot of money so I have NO love for this type of guy.

[Jasonxmay]

I am an attorney and there are no privacy laws that would prevent you from disclosing the username. eBay usernames are by their nature public and therefore are not confidential. You would only risk liability if you made false statements in conjunction with releasing the name.

Jason May
Oklahoma Bar No. 22644

Originally Posted by painthistorian

Hello everyone....I am very appalled about seeing a guy who bought a card from us in Feb 2015 and now probably used this card to forge Home Run Baker's name. I saw the screenshot that was provided on this topic and spent two hours looking up the feedback left for us in date order over last three years thru e bay and we have his e bay ID..I do not have any paperwork left from 2015 since we moved to a smaller location after the sale of my home but I matched up the e bay item # to the feedback left and it MATCHES EXACTLY....I will not post this name(ID) publicly but I will provide this information to any attorney that is representing these collectors that got burned, I am positive I have his e bay ID and transaction # thru e bay and I want to be careful here. If Adam Warshaw, Jeff Lichtman or another lawyer can tell me how I can provide this info without violating any privacy laws, I want to help the hobby rid someone who forges. I personally was burned by a So. California Rock N Roll album vendor who is now deceased and her operation was a huge scandal, I lost a lot of money so I have NO love for this type of guy.

[mantlefan]

Late to the show here, but this really sucks. I've never owned a signed T206, but I've been tempted. My sympathies to the fellows here who have been scammed. Props to Manny for sniffing this out.

[lowpopper]

Let's all draw blood and poke it with a hot needle.

[The Nasty Nati]

I think this will help my argument that this is the Cicotte. Someone unfortunately paid $11k for it. And like some of the other cards the forger added a couple new scuffs to the signature version.

And can anyone explain how I can post a bigger image? It keeps getting shrinked. The actual images are much bigger/clearer.

Here's a link to the bigger images:
https://imgur.com/a/ywpBCWl
https://imgur.com/a/oxiuEzF


Screen Shot 2018-11-30 at 12.01.33 AM.jpg

[atx840]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

I think this will help my argument that this is the Cicotte. Someone unfortunately paid $11k for it. And like some of the other cards the forger added a couple new scuffs to the signature version.

And can anyone explain how I can post a bigger image? It keeps getting shrinked. The actual images are much bigger/clearer.

Definitely the same card.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Here’s another one for the investigation team. Sold on eBay last summer, an American Beauty backed signed Livingston on the reverse. Thoughts on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Paddy-...-/362320695143

Better res pics available here:

https://imgur.com/2zaWcwy

https://imgur.com/nLJ87Wc

I hope the Livingston auto is real. If not, then at least the forger knew better to not add the "e" to the end of the name.

This just really pisses me off. A lot of us have been in this hobby since we were kids. Now I'm really starting to hate something that I grew up loving.

This hobby is turning into a sham (has been for a while):

• PSA8 trimmed Wagner
• PSA graded “Hall” collection T206s
• all the fake cards
• all the fake autographs
• and now this - what some people consider an industry expert in autograph authentication looks like it doesn’t have a clue in what they’re doing (finally proving what a lot of people have been saying for a long time....)

JSA is going to come out stinking on this but somehow I get the feeling they’ll get past this (unfortunately). Personally, I hope this sinks JSA and somehow a hobby evolution starts where things get cleaned up.... you know what they say, "wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which fills up faster"...

I cannot possibly understand how T206Collector and others scammed by this/these assholes must be feeling right now.

[theshleps]

I have the fake T206 Flick bought in the Feb 2016 Hunt auction. I probably own close to 20 signed tobacco cards (T206, 205, 202, etc), I posted half a dozen or so. The rest I am very confident in and are mainly Marquards. I only collect HOFers. This forger dealt alot with shakier end of life signatures tho not exclusively
Emotions are mixed. I am glad I have another Flick that is good.
I would like to see the forger in jail and I would like someone to refund the $ I spent. I have always expectedt a small % of my signed cards to be fake (I have about 5000 signed) tho most were bought from very reputable sources, and I expect TPA's a small % of the time to make mistakes. I would love to somehow get the forger to publish a list of all the cards he forged and sold tho that is most likely wishful thinking. For the past few years I have thought about liquidating my collection and just keeping one of each HOFer (mostly in autograph books which are much more likely to be legit).
I was never that comfortable with SGC and recently decided to get some of my valuable cards slabbed with PSA. I spent 2 days with Bill Corcoran who taught me much and he had the highest level of integrity and concern for unearthing fakes. After Bill gave his opinion Kevin Keating and 2 others also looked everything over. I was very impressed tho I fought TPAs for many years. These guys do want to clean up the hobby.
I do think the TPAs should delineate what they do- do they just look at the signature, do they look like Manny did for the card in an unsigned version, can they date the ink? etc. It would be nice to know the whole process. Alot comes down to cost benefit ratio. If I give them 20 Koufax at $20 each including the slabbing process it they can't do exhaustive searches etc. I'd have to be willing to pay more for a more exhaustive examination. It is an opinion of someone who hopefully is learned like Bill and Kevin. I always used to run my possibly purchases by Jim Stinson and Ron Gordon. I have a love hate relationship with autograph collecting and I love the friendships I have made. I may pull the plug like Jason did (great timing Jason). I fell bad for Paul as I only have a bad Flick so far compared to him.
I am trying to not get too freaked out but it is a travesty

[irv]

Originally Posted by whitey19thcentury

People have touched on the fact that all of these other signed tobacco issue cards and Goudeys that have hit the market over the past couple of years deserve scrutiny, but has anyone raised an eyebrow over the sudden influx of signed 1952 Topps cards that seemingly are in every auction now, too?

I don't think anything, at this point, unless it has some real good provenance, can be assumed as being real.

This fiasco will set everything on its ear for a long time, especially now that we know tried, true and trusted authenticators/TPA's made some serious errors!

My only signed (non factory) card that I purchased here sometime ago. I was very happy to receive it and I almost jumped in with collecting signed cards when I heard they were getting hot. Glad now I didn't have the funds to support that!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Charles, Charley, and Charlie all on one card, that's pretty good.

[swarmee]

Too bad we can't access SGC's old cert lookup tool, because that would help us find other candidates subbed at the same time. Or to look for gaps in how many in the submission failed authentication at the time.

[Fred]

Wouldn't it draw the suspicion of auction houses or TPGs if one person kept making submissions of signed T206s, 1933 Goudeys, 1952T etc? Am I missing something? Was the person selling this stuff ungraded and then the buyers were having the cards authenticated by TPGs?

Wouldn't the TPGs see this huge influx of signed cards as a possible indication that something's wrong?

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Too bad we can't access SGC's old cert lookup tool, because that would help us find other candidates subbed at the same time. Or to look for gaps in how many in the submission failed authentication at the time.

Somebody else had mentioned about forgers possibly sending in 20 examples and if they got one passed, it made up for the losses and then some. But TPGs have to have a system in place where the failed authentications would raise a red flag, right? None of these TPGs could possibly get 20 submissions (or more) from one submitter (either of the same auto or the same set, etc.), fail 19 and authenticate one without raising submissions, right?!? That seems downright crazy...

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Too bad we can't access SGC's old cert lookup tool, because that would help us find other candidates subbed at the same time. Or to look for gaps in how many in the submission failed authentication at the time.

Beat me to it! Lol.