"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?

[OlderTheBetter]

Originally Posted by bounce

Just wondering how other people view this sort of restoration project.

I don't have a problem with restoration as long as full disclosure happens. People can spend their money how they see fit. Large-scale restoration is expensive and requires a great deal of skill to do well -- I don't see it being done for cards that the average collector could ever afford.

IMHO the hobby has quite a few more serious problems that are not going away any time soon.

Lesser alteration is much more widespread than restoration and it's been going on for a long time and is only going to be more prevalent in the future.

What I think is even more insidious and potentially crippling to the hobby is the proliferation of high-quality reprints and counterfeits. They are being more skillfully produced all the time and even artificially aged when needed. The day is not far off when almost all cards worth $100 or more that are traded or sold on the market will require third-party authentication. Some people say we're already at that point now. For those that are willing to pay the higher cost of graded cards it's not an issue; for collectors just wanting decent raw vintage cards at a decent price it's going to be a rocky road.

As long as people are willing to pay insane prices for small pieces of cardboard (mass-produced so not comparable to most fine art in that respect) then there will be those willing to provide what appears to be real but isn't. It's a target rich environment for the grifters. The people that restore cards with disclosure are not that.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by OlderTheBetter

I don't have a problem with restoration as long as full disclosure happens. People can spend their money how they see fit. Large-scale restoration is expensive and requires a great deal of skill to do well -- I don't see it being done for cards that the average collector could ever afford.

IMHO the hobby has quite a few more serious problems that are not going away any time soon.

Lesser alteration is much more widespread than restoration and it's been going on for a long time and is only going to be more prevalent in the future.

What I think is even more insidious and potentially crippling to the hobby is the proliferation of high-quality reprints and counterfeits. They are being more skillfully produced all the time and even artificially aged when needed. The day is not far off when almost all cards worth $100 or more that are traded or sold on the market will require third-party authentication. Some people say we're already at that point now. For those that are willing to pay the higher cost of graded cards it's not an issue; for collectors just wanting decent raw vintage cards at a decent price it's going to be a rocky road.

As long as people are willing to pay insane prices for small pieces of cardboard (mass-produced so not comparable to most fine art in that respect) then there will be those willing to provide what appears to be real but isn't. It's a target rich environment for the grifters. The people that restore cards with disclosure are not that.

I agree that as long as there is full disclosure as to what was done to the card, to each his/her own as to the card's desirability and value. Collecting by its nature is subjective, and if someone gets pleasure out of owing such a card, what's wrong with that? That said, grading companies might want to consider making a fuller disclosure than simply referring to the card as "restored". As this thread amply demonstrates, restored has different meanings to different people. One remedy would be for the flip to show before and after images of the card, so the prospective purchaser would have more complete info as to what was done.

My biggest concern, which Dave's post well states, is the day is not far off (and may already be here) when reproductions will be so good that one will not be able to tell a counterfeit from an original. And I am not persuaded that grading companies will be able to tell either, at least not with their current methods. I believe in time provenance will matter more and more as to the value of a card, both as to whether the card has been altered and also as to whether the card is real.

[Touch'EmAll]

I would consider this - to what degree is this a restored card. A little here, maybe little there, or a major complete 100% overhaul that bears absolutely positively no resemblance of the original? A filled pinhole, maybe ok, a corner press or soak also maybe ok, a tad of color added, ok. But I wouldn't touch this (knowing) with a 10 ft., er 100 ft. pole !

[tothrk]

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

[mrvster]

+1
I can't agree more.....I'm just like you.....

if we accept this as collectors, its hard to draw the line.....

almost like "manufacturing rarity".........if you want that, buy new cards


vintage cards should not be tampered with by altering, once that is done, the card has no more integrity than the seller

[mrvster]

the flip should read

"FRANKEN - WAGNER"

[pokerplyr80]

I wouldn't buy one personally but as everything they did in the restoration is documented and there was no attempt to deceive collectors I have no problem with this.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tothrk

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

That's an excellent question!


Magies can probably be identified by particular flaws on the front/back. I haven't done much with the scans I've saved off lately, but there were specific things that I was seeing only on Magies


So that's a bigger question. How far to go in restoring?

[22eckstein]

As a t206 collector myself I actually prefer when cards do not look "pristine" I love the way that wagner looked originally, Would never buy that after it was restored.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by tothrk

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

Leon, that would be one helluva of a job of trimming--leaving only the bottom border! BUT, hypothetically, as you say, if that was to be done, great question how the hobby would regard the final outcome.

The Just So, as I recall, retained the original player image and inserted new borders cannibalized from another (actress subject) Just So.