Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[SetBuilder]

Large images for reference:

[BLongley]

Oh wow, this is bad!

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Oh wow, this is bad!

I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

Uh, no.... to most of us, you're a frigging machine! This is going to rock signed T206 card collecting to the core.

Was JSA the authenticator on all of the T206 fake signature cards?

[Laxcat]

This is not good. This makes my heart and head hurt. I don’t have any prewar autos that aren’t football but this makes me not want to purchase anything until this crap gets sorted out.

[HobokenJon]

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of -- after Mastro had been convicted.



And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

[HobokenJon]

Just realized I should've posted that last post to the other thread about the fake autograph that SGC rejected. I'll post it there now.

[pete zouras]

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by pete zouras

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

My opinion, your card is probably an authentic auto. The fading of the signature is pretty hard to forge and I believe that is a fountain pen auto.

Ones I would be suspicion of are the bold ballpoint pen and sharpie signatures.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pete zouras

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

This card is from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards. Only the Covaleski (secretarial) didn't pass authentication. I would credit this Find with bringing recent attention to signed T206 cards (it certainly jump-started my collection), and unfortunately appears to have invited more forgers into the game.

The Snodgrass asked about above is from "Pre-eBay Group 3" which means they were all offered to me by a recognized dealer in Pittsburgh (either "ctang50" and "r.c.means" on ebay) before he listed them on eBay. From that group, I still have -- and adore -- the signed T201 Wheat and the signed T206 Barbeau. You can read about the find and review the cards from that find on my website.

http://www.signedt206.com/great-pittsburgh-find/

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This card is from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards. Only the Covaleski (secretarial) didn't pass authentication. I would credit this Find with bringing recent attention to signed T206 cards (it certainly jump-started my collection), and unfortunately appears to have invited more forgers into the game.

The Snodgrass asked about above is from "Pre-eBay Group 3" which means they were all offered to me by a recognized dealer in Pittsburgh (either "ctang50" and "r.c.means" on ebay) before he listed them on eBay. From that group, I still have -- and adore -- the signed T201 Wheat and the signed T206 Barbeau. You can read about the find and review the cards from that find on my website.

http://www.signedt206.com/great-pittsburgh-find/

I own the double signed Davy Jones from this find... Is it real?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I own the double signed Davy Jones from this find... Is it real?

I believe all signed T206 cards from that find -- other than Secretary-signed Covaleski, the William-signed Powell and the Larry-signed Joe Doyle -- to be authentic.

Without committing that every autographed T206 authenticated prior to October 2015 is the real deal, and putting aside for the moment Rube Marquard generally for other reasons including, but certainly not limited to, the evidently large population and the evidence that his wife may very well have signed some of his T206 cards late in life, I think the most critical eye towards authenticity has to begin with the Robert Edward and Hunt Auctions in the Fall of 2015.

By way of background, in November 2013, the prices on signed T206 cards really went through the roof. Heritage held the largest signed T206 card collection auction since the 2007 find. Not only did this auction feature the first offer of a signed T206 Rucker (throwing pose) since Jeff Morey’s sale in 2001, but the prices realized were more or less astronomical, when compared with the most recent public sales of many of these cards. Ironically, though Marquard is the most popular signed T206 subject, not a single Marquard was available. However, the other "usual suspects" Doyle and Snodgrass were featured, as well as a nice Tommy Leach portrait. For collectors looking to add HOFers, you had three to pick from -- Flick and Crawford, who both went for over $6,500 -- and the cleanest signature on a Wheat imaginable, which helped explain the nearly $4,000 price tag.

Importantly, and I think this is very import -- no new discoveries of unknown signed poses were here, but still wonderful cards nonetheless.

However - and perhaps due to these record-breaking prices, during the winter of 2015-16, a flurry of signed T206 cards popped up in REA and Hunt -- a whopping 6 of which poses had never been publicly identified before (at least as far back and including Jeff Morey's auction of his collection through Mastro in 2001):

In Fall 2015 REA...
1. Frank Baker
2. Jesse Tannehill



In Fall 2015 Hunt...
3. Murray Batting



In Spring 2016 Hunt...
4. Rhoades Hands at Chest



In Spring 2016 REA...
5. Conroy Fielding
6. Sullivan



If your cards did not come from or after the time of these auctions you are not necessarily clear, of course, but I would not let the current trauma affect you. There was nothing surprising about the cards that appeared on the market between 2001 and 2015, all of which are consistent in terms of the players that folks like Jeff Morey were getting in person at Cooperstown and through the mail from the mid-1950s through the 1970s.

In 2015, the landscape shifted and started to include a lot of one-off names. That's not to say all of them aren't legitimate, but Sullivan and Rhoades -- obscure names for autograph seekers -- certainly aren't.

What remains to be seen is whether the consignor(s) of these cards -- and I believe Baker, Tannehill, Rucker, Parent, Sullivan and Conroy all came from the same consignor -- got the cards from the forger unknowingly/unwittingly, whether there were good ones mixed in with the bad ones, or whether they're all just fake regardless of whether the consignor was in on it. REA is in the process of trying to figure this out on his end, and Hunt has been contacted by interested collectors as well. SGC and REA have both indicated the FBI will be contacted.

So, short story, if your signed T206 card(s) can be traced to a sale prior to October 1, 2015, I do not believe that your card would be affected by this latest string of forgeries. Of course, that does not mean you're necessarily in the clear. It just means your cards or collection up to that point probably wasn't impacted by this current attack on the hobby.

As I have said for years and years on Net54, a collection of pre-war cards, signed or not, is only going to be as valuable as the ability and reputation of the TPG/TPA to certify the card/signature.

I will be sure to keep posting about this scourge on my collection and my hobby, and I will have no shame -- and only sadness -- in identifying those cards in my collection that have been shown by credible evidence to be frauds.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

In Spring 2016 Hunt...
4. Rhoades Hands at Chest

The first 3 from Hunt are bad. Odds are so is the Zimmermann.

[Fred]

Holy crap, the plot thickens....

[The Nasty Nati]

I'm starting to wonder if we can trace a majority of the existing signed T206s to their unsigned version through a deep Worthpoint search. This is pretty alarming.

[gregr2]

Great work! Though this is really sad.

[T206Collector]

Now you've got one of my newest ones, and an expensive one to boot!



Guess I'll be calling REA and SGC now...

Edited to add that it is, indeed, really sad. Sullivan is the most I've ever paid for a signed T206 card. And I have never questioned its authenticity. Plus, it was authenticated by SGC and JSA, and in the most reputable auction house in our hobby.

[scooter729]

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

[OldSchoolBaseball]

It's just the tip of the iceberg. Those T206, Goudey, etc vintage autograph collections are loaded with fakes. And if they are not, everyone will think so anyway.

Too much money and greed.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

Those blocked ebay names change sometimes, so we either have 4 letters from the username or the user changed their name since Feb.

[The Nasty Nati]

I found another.
Here's the worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1737649372
And a better picture of the auto (t206collector I hope it's okay I reference your photo): http://www.signedt206.com/other-peop...ktbffyldzycqzp

The creasing is identical. There is a tobacco mark that was removed on his crotch but the missing cardboard is in the same location.
I'm sure a ton more fakes are about to be unsurfaced. This took me 2 minutes to find.

[yanks12025]

Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys

[jad22]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys

Might move on to Goudey and Playball.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by jad22

Might move on to Goudey and Playball.

I know theres been talk before that a bunch of the Ruth signed Goudeys were fakes.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

It's the same buyer, and I'll say it's the forger. No such thing as coincidences

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

The letters aren't always the same on the ID's even if it's the same buyer.

The last sale of the Parent I found was August 22 2015 on ebay.
There were two other cards purchased by the same buyer.

Parent Sale.jpg


Here's the scans from that sale

Parent.jpg

Parent Back.jpg

[tab]

I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by tab

I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.

The Sullivan fake is copied almost exactly from this index card: http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lot...ventoryid=3920

Same positioning and spacing of the letters.

[WillowGrove]

I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by WillowGrove

I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.

+1

Painful, but vital to the health of the hobby.