5 Year Hall of Famers? Make your case

[jpop43]

Don Mattingly: 1984- 1989

MVP, Batting Title, x5 All-Star, x3 Sliver Slugger, x5 Gold Gloves

[Jason19th]

I think the barber gets forgotten - but from 1950-1954 he went 73-33

[Peter_Spaeth]

Don Newcombe was great for the first 5/6 years of his career and missed two peak years for military service.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

I think the barber gets forgotten - but from 1950-1954 he went 73-33

Don Mattingly is the poster boy for five year HOFer. Over the period from 1984-88 he batted about .330 with, on average, over 200 hits per year. He also hit for power and was one of the best fielding first basemen in the game.

[rats60]

I am surprised everyone missed the obvious for non Hall of Famers. Steve Garvey 1974-1980 .311 BA, 1408 hits, 160 Hrs, 730 RBI, 7 All Star, 5 top 6 MVP finishes, 4 Gold Gloves, 2 AS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 MVP. Only missed 8 games over 7 seasons. He was even better in 29 postseason games with .339 BA,. 585 SLG, 40 hits, 7 HE, 16 RBI leading his team to 3 World Series.

[KCRfan1]

I love Garvey! Great and obvious selection rats! I have had the privilege of working with him about 10 years ago and he couldn't have been more pleasant!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I am surprised everyone missed the obvious for non Hall of Famers. Steve Garvey 1974-1980 .311 BA, 1408 hits, 160 Hrs, 730 RBI, 7 All Star, 5 top 6 MVP finishes, 4 Gold Gloves, 2 AS MVP, 1 NLCS MVP, 1 MVP. Only missed 8 games over 7 seasons. He was even better in 29 postseason games with .339 BA,. 585 SLG, 40 hits, 7 HE, 16 RBI leading his team to 3 World Series.

Back in the day I loved Garvey, and so did everyone else (as a player anyhow). I still can't really take on board the disparity between his career stats (his baseball reference numbers are really underwhelming; they rank him the 50th best ever at IB which to me is absurd) and my perception of how good he was, and not just for a relatively short period. I guess the lack of walks really hurt some of his metrics.

Dave Parker is also pretty high on that list of disparity between my perception and the numbers.

[Kenny Cole]

I am a huge Parker fan. i grew up watching Garvey and agree the there is a pretty huge disparity between the eye test at the time and the analytics, which is one of the reasons that I'm not too sold on analytics being anywhere close to the end-all and be-all of the determination. There are tons of things you see watching someone play that don't show up in the numbers crunching, which, by they way, will probably have morphed into a completely different analysis in a few more years. IMO, it is fine to use them as part of the analysis, but foolish to use them as the only basis upon which to make the decision.

Walker was a stud. Parker was too. Lots of people played in Colorado. Back then, Walker, and later Helton, did what they did. Yeah, there is a difference in the splits, but they are both pretty good. There's probably a split in the difference of everyone else who played there and who is in the HOF too. i would imagine that's the case in every ballpark that's s considered a hitter's ballpark, for example, Seattle. Yet a bunch of folks advocate for Edgar, who couldn't play defense at all , as a HOFer. He couldn't hold Walker's jock on the field. Oh yeah, he wasn't even there. Walker won 7 gold gloves in addition to his MVP and his 3 silver sluggers. Edgar had 5 silver sluggers and 0 gold gloves and 0 MVPs. Right. The comparison, IMO, isn't even close.

Apart from Walker and Helton, no one else came close to what they did in Colorado. I think that means something. Then, they also played pretty well everywhere else. Now you have Arenado, who is rapidly moving up on the list of best 3B of all time both offensively and defensively. He's a stud too. But he, obviously, is also in Colorado. Does that mean he can't get in? Or is the "humidor" effect, which IMO means nothing, the reason he's different?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Arenado's career home away splits to date.
108/376/.320
vs.
78/240/.263

Fairly dramatic.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back in the day I loved Garvey, and so did everyone else (as a player anyhow). I still can't really take on board the disparity between his career stats (his baseball reference numbers are really underwhelming; they rank him the 50th best ever at IB which to me is absurd) and my perception of how good he was, and not just for a relatively short period. I guess the lack of walks really hurt some of his metrics.

Dave Parker is also pretty high on that list of disparity between my perception and the numbers.

BB Reference and Fangaphs try to fit everyone into the same formula, but sometimes that formula just fails. Garvey is one of those guys. Those sites over value walks, especially for middle of the line up guys. All Garvey did was expand the strike zone to get more hits, 200+ per season, and drive in runs, 100+ per season.

In theory getting on base and not making outs is good, but not always. Sometimes you need to risk making outs to drive in runs instead of letting them pitch around you and get a weaker hitter out. In the real world, Garvey's approach led to 5 NL Championships and 1 World Championship.

Garvey also gets punished for being a 1st baseman. He went a whole season without making an error, but they claim that his defense was worth less a replacement player. There is no way that someone setting a record for most consecutive errorless games is not better than any average player.

10 time All Star, 4 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 2 NLCS MVP, 2 AS MVP, 5 NL Champion, 1 World Champion. That is a lot of Fame, seems to fit in with Hall of Fame a lot better than some that are already there.

[Laxcat]

I always thought Garvey was a lock. Until I met him. He is an effing a-hole. People still vote you in to the Hall and his attitude is a huge part of the reason he will never be in the HOF.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by jpop43

Don Mattingly: 1984- 1989

MVP, Batting Title, x5 All-Star, x3 Sliver Slugger, x5 Gold Gloves

Pedro Tony Oliva: 1964-1971

x3 Batting Title, x8 All-Star, x4 Hits leader, x4 Doubles leader, 1 Gold Glove*


* - I'm not real keen on gold glove awards as Palmeiro got one while being a DH.

[iwantitiwinit]

Albert Belle 1995-1999

Runs 556 5yr avg 111.2
Hits 915 183
Doubles 219 43.8
HR's 214 42.8
RBI's 659 131.8
Avg .305

[Touch'EmAll]

I like this "...but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in." What about a career ending injury? Can/should you be able to get in? I am referring to Bo Jackson (I would first induct him into Football HOF). Are there extra bonus HOF points for death vs. career ending injury?

[btcarfagno]

Dave Parker 1975-1979

2 Batting Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves, .321 Batting Average, 146 OPS+


Babe Herman 1928-1932

.351 Batting Average, 208 Doubles, 65 Triples, 102 Homers, 152 OPS+


Dave Orr 1884-1890

.346 Batting Average, 1 Batting Title, 2 Slugging Titles, 161 OPS+, 202 OPS+ in 1885(only Dan Brouthers twice and Tip O'Neil once had a higher single season OPS+ from 1882-1903)

[frankbmd]

The thread seems to have shifted into what my next thread was going to be and that’s okay.

This thread was to be for actual HOFers whose HOF credentials were confined to a five year portion of their career, like Koufax.

The next planned thread was to be for HOF wannabes who left the gates like gangbusters and then become ordinary ballplayers and never made it to Cooperstown, such as Mattingly or Albert Belle perhaps.

The second group could be considered “pseudo-HOFers” perhaps.

I would not distinguish between career ending injury and death, the ultimate career ending injury.

Both groups are now represented in this thread eliminating the need for a second thread. I will leave it to reader to decide which group the cited player is in.

Hint: If he is not in the list of HOFers, he is in the second group.

[Rookiemonster]

Larry Doyle

1908 -1912

1 MVP

Avg 307 runs 448 hits 799 rbi 319


HR 37 SB 161

He was considered one of the best fields of his time. And when he retired he had the top marks for a second baseman in a lot of stats.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Dave Parker 1975-1979

2 Batting Titles, 1 MVP, 3 Gold Gloves, .321 Batting Average, 146 OPS+


Babe Herman 1928-1932

.351 Batting Average, 208 Doubles, 65 Triples, 102 Homers, 152 OPS+


Dave Orr 1884-1890

.346 Batting Average, 1 Batting Title, 2 Slugging Titles, 161 OPS+, 202 OPS+ in 1885(only Dan Brouthers twice and Tip O'Neil once had a higher single season OPS+ from 1882-1903)

Good list. I also nominate o'Doul and Sisler, the latter having got into the hall because of his magnificent play from 1917 through the1922 season. His war those years 5.9, 6.8, 6.1, 9.8, 5.7, 8.7.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

I like this "...but if longevity is abbreviated by death, you can get in." What about a career ending injury? Can/should you be able to get in? I am referring to Bo Jackson (I would first induct him into Football HOF). Are there extra bonus HOF points for death vs. career ending injury?

Bo isn't even close to being a HOF level pro football player. You gotta play at least one full season, IMHO.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Albert Belle 1995-1999

Runs 556 5yr avg 111.2
Hits 915 183
Doubles 219 43.8
HR's 214 42.8
RBI's 659 131.8
Avg .305

Belle is a no-brainer HOFer. Him not being in is a joke. He was actually the hitter the "Jim Rice was FEARED" people claim Rice to have been. 9 straight years as an elite hitter with a 10th very good year on one leg. 40 homers every 162 games. Gimme a break.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Belle is a no-brainer HOFer. Him not being in is a joke. He was actually the hitter the "Jim Rice was FEARED" people claim Rice to have been. 9 straight years as an elite hitter with a 10th very good year on one leg. 40 homers every 162 games. Gimme a break.

Remind me why he just vanished at age 33, did he have a career ending injury?

[parker1b2]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Remind me why he just vanished at age 33, did he have a career ending injury?

Degenerative hip Osteoarthritis ended his career. He should have won the MVP in 1995, but lost to Mo Vaughn caus of his poor relationship with the media. He should be in the HOF, but his attitude with media and fans kept him out.

[Touch'EmAll]

Yes, Bo never played an entire NFL season. The reason ? He was too darn good at MLB (all-star) that it encroached on his NFL career. His throwing arm most definitely ranks in the top ten in the entire history of MLB. The outfield range with Bo was also incredible. So his MLB all-star status kept him from racking up NFL stat brownie points. If he didn't play MLB, his NFL stats would be even more impressive.

But lets look at his NFL stats compared to, say, the recognized greatest running back of all time, Jim Brown. Brown played in 118 games. Bo played in roughly one third the games Brown did - 38 games. One of the biggest (if not The biggest) woo hoo stat for NFL running backs is Yards per Carry. Jim Brown had a higher career yards per carry more than anyone at 5.2 - well, better than almost everyone. Bo Jackson had 5.4

Speed? At an NFL combine, Bo ran the 40 in 4.12 seconds. Still the fastest 40 ever recorded at any NFL combine. Bo is up with the fastest NFL'ers of all time. It has been said that only Bob Hayes could have been faster. Bob Hayes won an Olympic Gold Medal at the 100 Meters and at the time set a World Record.

Strength & Power? Bo just bowled them over with his unbelievable power. Take a look at some youtube highlight videos, and I think you too will agree that his strength was unparalleled as an NFL running back.

So, Bo missed out on NFL games because of two reasons - he was too good at MLB, and then had a career ending injury.

I have not seen all the greats, however, from what I have seen, in my lifetime Bo had the best outfield arm I ever saw, was the fastest NFL'er I ever saw, had the most power of any NFL running back I ever saw, and compiled the highest yards per carry of any NFL running back ever to play the game.

He really should be in at least the NFL football HOF. Oh, that third word - FAME. Yeah, he was pretty darn famous. Imho, Bo & Jordan probably the two most famous athletes of my time. That should count for something as well.

[tjenkins]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Pedro Tony Oliva: 1964-1971

x3 Batting Title, x8 All-Star, x4 Hits leader, x4 Doubles leader, 1 Gold Glove*


* - I'm not real keen on gold glove awards as Palmeiro got one while being a DH.

I am am in agreement with Clydepepper with Tony O. He was as good as Clemente when he was good. Bad knees ruined his career. I have always been most impressed with the way he goes to communities as an ambassador to baseball. I live in South Dakota and he married a South Dakota girl and has been to our community a number of times to put on clinics.

[Mdmtx]

Silver King

[Baseballcrazy62]

Bill Freehan: 10 straight All-Star games and 11 total all star appearance’s from 64-75. Was one of the dominant catchers of his era and won a World Series. In 1982 he received .5% of the votes from the writers. There was a great story yesterday in the Detroit Free Press

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...rs/1739616002/

Mickey Lolich: won 97 games from 68-72. Also won 3 games in the 68 World Series. Pitched 1475 innings during that stretch including 376 innings in 1971. Never received more than 25% of the writers votes. Also had 88 complete games during that stretch.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Baseballcrazy62

Bill Freehan: 10 straight All-Star games and 11 total all star appearance’s from 64-75. Was one of the dominant catchers of his era and won a World Series. In 1982 he received .5% of the votes from the writers. There was a great story yesterday in the Detroit Free Press

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...rs/1739616002/

Mickey Lolich: won 97 games from 68-72. Also won 3 games in the 68 World Series. Pitched 1475 innings during that stretch including 376 innings in 1971. Never received more than 25% of the writers votes. Also had 88 complete games during that stretch.

I'll stick with the Tigers theme and toss in Denny McLain. Those years from 1965-1969 were his career. 108 wins, 31 of which came in 1968 along with an MVP.