Matty Portrait SGC 5 for $4k+

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

it's only a matter of time before this shilling has a massive negative impact on the hobby

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

it's only a matter of time before this shilling has a massive negative impact on the hobby

agreed..silly to compare this to stock prices........how much were clemente 1955 psa 7 rookies 'going' for last year...and a slew of others than magically declined in value even after the stock market went up

Shill...

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

agreed..silly to compare this to stock prices........how much were clemente 1955 psa 7 rookies 'going' for last year...and a slew of others than magically declined in value even after the stock market went up

Shill...

How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Leon

How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.

Leon- I hope you are right as I'm going after a 'big dog' tonight.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.

That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern.

However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction

[Touch'EmAll]

Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?

Curious. What is the eye appeal of the Psa 1 and Psa 2 example you mention? The Psa 1.5 in PWCC last night was stellar for the grade, thus the ending price.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Curious. What is the eye appeal of the Psa 1 and Psa 2 example you mention? The Psa 1.5 in PWCC last night was stellar for the grade, thus the ending price.

I actually took a look at both, and I can certainly understand why someone would pay more for the 1.5 over the 2.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?

It’s ALL about the eye appeal. People rather have an extremely nice 1.5 (with a negligible technical defect that lowers the grade) than a borderline eye appeal 2 or 3. That is EXACTLY where the hobby has leaned towards. Bottom line is VCP is useless without an image.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Bottom line is VCP is useless without an image.

+1

[bounce]

VCP has images, they aren't hard to get. Here you go.

I feel like the price for the SGC was too high. Market value for their "holders" isn't really the same, and in these mid grades there are often flaws that PSA probably downgrades. I know I'm speaking broadly, but I think most that try and cross would tell you the same thing - expectation from SGC to PSA should normally be a grade lower. There are exceptions, and this might be one.

As someone who collects T206 portraits I can say the Matty is a tough one to find in the mid-grades that really ticks all the boxes. I've owned 4-5 of them at different times between 3-6, but don't currently have one as I still have not found the right one.

I don't think the auction bidding looks all that suspect, the winner put in two bids. One at $100, one to win.


This one sold in REA in May for $3,600
Registration is off, centering is good, color is really good



This one sold in PWCC in April for $3471, and in PWCC in February before that (...no additional comment) for $3018
Registration is really good, centering is great but color isn't quite as vivid



This one sold in Memory Lane in January for $2827
Registration is a little off, centering is great and color is great



This on sold in Goldin last November for $3300, and in PWCC in March 2017 for $3450 (oops...)
Registration is a little off, centering is great and color is great



And the SGC 5 Certified High End for $4209
Registration is great, centering is great, color is great

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.

On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99

So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ?

I think most people would take the 1.5 over the 2 even at the higher price.

Johnson 1.5.jpgJohnson 2.jpg

and that's not paper loss on the left border of the 1.5 is a print
flaw that is found on a few Johnson Portraits.

Johnson Border Flaw.jpg

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think most people would take the 1.5 over the 2 even at the higher price.

Attachment 331502Attachment 331503

and that's not paper loss on the left border of the 1.5 is a print
flaw that is found on a few Johnson Portraits.

Attachment 331504

That does look like paper loss to me

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.

That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern.

However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction

I'm not trying to defend every bidding situation we see on PWCC here, but what you're describing there as tandem bidding is what happens in an auction as a bidding war no? I will sometimes place multiple bids at the end of an auction if it turns out my snipe was set too low, it can be a matter of impulse. I think some folks have that same impulse for the duration of the auction. Its not smart as it can lead to being bid up but I'm sure you've met competitive people who might enjoy doing the back and forth on an item especially if its below market price. Add a hot item into that equation and I'm sure you will find two bidders duking it out in an auction. Why would you want to prevent that in your own online auctions? I don't think that potential consignors with you will find that appealing. Not everyone has the same bidding habits that you might think are normal/traditional.

Whenever an ebay seller has 200-400 T206's listed in an auction on ebay my bidding percentage with them usually ends up above 75% for the duration of the auction as I collect T206. With the amount of advertising PWCC does I'll bet there are more than a few who don't bid on ebay unless its with PWCC, this would raise their percentage.. There are also not that many good cards auctioned as compared to lsited with a high set price, so bidding my be narrowed down to a certain seller when they have a large offering.

If you think about these things objectively you can see reasons for things that might otherwise be red flags. I don't see the price of Matty as crazy either, it went $500 higher than the last one... Just my 2c.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.

That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern.

However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction

I have not looked at the bidding history on this particular auction, but the percentage of bids with PWCC doesn't really mean much. There are months when I probably have a bidding percentage that high with PWCC, and I have never consigned anything with them or shilled an auction.

The real dubious indicator to look for is bid retractions.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I have not looked at the bidding history on this particular auction, but the percentage of bids with PWCC doesn't really mean much. There are months when I probably have a bidding percentage that high with PWCC, and I have never consigned anything with them or shilled an auction.

The real dubious indicator to look for is bid retractions.

Two guys trying to top each other. . .trying to bid as little as they can to get it as cheaply as possible as the clock is running out . . . . Isn't that exactly how you figure ALL auctions end on eBay for highly coveted items? I do.

PWCC isn't an auction house where the closing clock gets reset repeatedly.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Two guys trying to top each other. . .trying to bid as little as they can to get it as cheaply as possible as the clock is running out . . . . Isn't that exactly how you figure ALL auctions end on eBay for highly coveted items? I do.

PWCC isn't an auction house where the closing clock gets reset repeatedly.

except these two were NOT at the very end. and one of them "string bid" according to Brent's definition about a dozen times advancing the bid up the minimum each time.

No one of these things (bid patterns, frequency with pwcc, etc) is conclusive, but taken as a whole it's at the least suspicious.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.

I also am talking generally as well. Not saying for this particular item...also not saying it was on the 1955 clemente...just saying there is history of cards spiking out of nowhere where it may not be as organic as we would like....not saying it happened in this case....also was a reaction when someone was comparing the sales with recent stock prices...so was more of take on not comparing stocks with cards in this genre at this time until there is much more data points and time..

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I also am talking generally as well. Not saying for this particular item...also not saying it was on the 1955 clemente...just saying there is history of cards spiking out of nowhere where it may not be as organic as we would like....not saying it happened in this case....also was a reaction when someone was comparing the sales with recent stock prices...so was more of take on not comparing stocks with cards in this genre at this time until there is much more data points and time..

the 50's/60's/70's card bubble is very different than the dynamic in popular tobacco and cracker jack cards imo. the biggest difference is the pop. the second major difference is that buyers of the latter are differentiating between eye appeal and technical grade. buyers are paying prices that are sometimes 2-3 grades above the assigned grade for great eye appeal cards manufactured 100 years ago, not 50 years ago. that isn't to say that shilling isn't a factor...it is. but pricing seems less divorced from reality than what we were seeing in mid-2016 with high end clemente and rose rookies.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by griffon512

the 50's/60's/70's card bubble is very different than the dynamic in popular tobacco and cracker jack cards imo. the biggest difference is the pop. the second major difference is that buyers of the latter are differentiating between eye appeal and technical grade. buyers are paying prices that are sometimes 2-3 grades above the assigned grade for great eye appeal cards manufactured 100 years ago, not 50 years ago. that isn't to say that shilling isn't a factor...it is. but pricing seems less divorced from reality than what we were seeing in mid-2016 high end clemente and rose rookies.

i dont think pop is a factor when you are talking about a PSa 4-5 T206 versus a 1950s PSA 7-8

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

i dont think pop is a factor when you are talking about a PSa 4-5 T206 versus a 1950s PSA 7-8

my point is that very strong eye appeal of a psa 4-5 t206 is adding a couple of grades to the final price, so the pop of a 4-5 is less relevant. pwcc's PQ and HE labels are a successful marketing tool to exploit that. buyers are willing to 6 prices for a really nice 4-5. that dynamic is less true of most 50s/60s cards -- with the exception of '51 and '52 mantle -- which have larger pops to begin with in general, and have less variation among high end examples because of better manufacturing processes 50 years later.