Honus Wagner Patterson NJ BB team photo 1896???

[oldjudge]

Chris-I hear you, but helping the seller achieve a market price is only part of it. Discussing an auction is also giving all potential buyers the opportunity to bid on the item, so no one misses something they collect and may have been looking for. In most markets full disclosure of information is the law. I am just suggesting that full disclosure in the hobby market benefits both the seller and potential buyers, and through increased transparency the hobby in general.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Chris-I hear you, but helping the seller achieve a market price is only part of it. Discussing an auction is also giving all potential buyers the opportunity to bid on the item, so no one misses something they collect and may have been looking for. In most markets full disclosure of information is the law. I am just suggesting that full disclosure in the hobby market benefits both the seller and potential buyers, and through increased transparency the hobby in general.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Jay. In 20 years of being a member of this and other message boards, I don't believe I have never seen a situation where people have outed an auction so that everyone gets a chance to bid on it.

If i put in the legwork to find something that was missed by 90% of the potential buyers, I don't think I should have to worry about that auction being outed on here by an uninterested party under the premise of giving everyone a chance at bidding on it. If I found it other people can too.

Moreover, that opens a pandoras box of non-altrusic uses for outing auctions. People would be using this place as a bulletin board for their auctions that they were concerned wouldn't get the price they want, among other things.

[Snapolit1]

Rhys, you have been helpful to me personally. And I appreciated it.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone. I honestly just don’t understand the argument that as collectors all of our allegiances should be with a potential buyer about to get a breathtaking deal and not with a seller about to lose something at an uniformed price.

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Rhys, you have been helpful to me personally. And I appreciated it.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone. I honestly just don’t understand the argument that as collectors all of our allegiances should be with a potential buyer about to get a breathtaking deal and not with a seller about to lose something at an uniformed price.

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

I understand your point-- there are two legitimate perspectives. Reminds me a bit like when Net54ers decry shill bidding, but tell their friends not to bid on lots they want to suppress bids.

Invoking 'unwritten rule' never particularly impressed me-- especially since it's usually a rule seven people agreed to and decided to impose on everyone.

Here is an interesting case where people decry that a consigner is getting enough exposure for his lot, and that someone gave it exposure.

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by drcy

Reminds me a bit like when Net54ers decry shill bidding, but tell their friends not to bid on lots they want to suppress bids.

I was thinking the same thing. Most people’s perspectives align with what benefits them.

I have no problem with the outing of auctions, but I can certainly see both sides. To me, it seems outing an auction benefits more people than it hurts, which would overall be a good thing.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

Steve I agree with you here but what if a random Ebay seller listed a photo in an obscure category and called it a reprint and you saw the photo and recognized it was an original type 1 Conlon and planned to bid on it? Would you want someone not interested in the photo to post about it here before the auction ended in the hopes that the seller corrected the listing and/or to alert other potential interested parties?

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Steve I agree with you here but what if a random Ebay seller listed a photo in an obscure category and called it a reprint and you saw the photo and recognized it was an original type 1 Conlon and planned to bid on it? Would you want someone not interested in the photo to post about it here before the auction ended in the hopes that the seller corrected the listing and/or to alert other potential interested parties?

I see your point as well. Honestly I don't have super strong feelings on it either way. But some have very very strong feelings on the nondisclosure side and I have a hard time understanding that.

I remember a few years ago Christies was selling lots and some people in the area went in person and realized some of the lots were poorly identified (cabinets photos I think) and much more valuable than advertised. Do they have an obligation to tell the world about the fruits of their research? I'd say no. Are they an ahole it they decide to do so? I'd also say no.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Rhys, you have been helpful to me personally. And I appreciated it.

I’m not looking to fight with anyone. I honestly just don’t understand the argument that as collectors all of our allegiances should be with a potential buyer about to get a breathtaking deal and not with a seller about to lose something at an uniformed price.

If I listed a photo somewhere and forgot to say it was a Conlon rarity or if the AH didn’t recognize it, I’d hope someone on the board would reach out to me and tell me I’m making a huge error. But maybe that’s not how the game is played.

First off, Steve, it’s great to have you back on here. As to the debate, I don’t think the real issue here is about protecting some buyer/collector who is about to get a breathtaking deal. I will bet that the people who are passionate about this issue happen to be the flippers/dealers who scour the internet and hunt in obscure auctions looking for deals so that THEY can later sell it for absurd amounts of money. If you “out” these auctions, you are cutting into the profits of these flippers. I want to note that I am not referring to any particular member who has posted on here, nor am I saying that a collector cant ever be affected by an “outing.” I’m saying that the loudest voices are probably coming from guys who make a living off the hobby and expect radio silence so that they can steal the item and then resell it TO A COLLECTOR for a huge profit.
Now to address the collector (as opposed to a flipper) who gets pissed when someone outs your auction item. Finding a card first doesn’t give you any right to the card. An auction is not finders-keepers. Don’t be surprised when other collectors find out about it through the internet. In fact, you should EXPECT IT! The person doing the “outing” may bother you, but he is actually helping other collectors who didn’t know about the auction and want the card just as badly as you do. Why are you more important than those collectors? You want the card more than them? Outbid them.

[rhettyeakley]

I'm out. This is insane.

There is an entire subset of the population that enjoys looking for "deals." Not because they are immoral rip-off artists, looking to "steal" items, cheat theoretical consignors, or rip off 70 year old widows. They just enjoy looking for items at prices they are happy with. There is nothing wrong with the way they decide to collect, it isn't any lesser a form of collecting than "COLLECTORS" ... whatever that means.

**Please Note** I overpay for stuff ALL THE TIME, This entire thread I am simply pointing out that I understand the different types of COLLECTORS & where they are coming from, how do you guys not?

[orly57]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I'm out. This is insane.

There is an entire subset of the population that enjoys looking for "deals." Not because they are immoral rip-off artists, looking to "steal" items, cheat theoretical consignors, or rip off 70 year old widows. They just enjoy looking for items at prices they are happy with. There is nothing wrong with the way they decide to collect, it isn't any lesser a form of collecting than "COLLECTORS" ... whatever that means.

**Please Note** I overpay for stuff ALL THE TIME, This entire thread I am simply pointing out that I understand the different types of COLLECTORS & where they are coming from, how do you guys not?

Rhett,

That was not a shot at you. I’ve always liked your posts, and I know you are a respected member of this community. Who doesn’t like a deal???? I know many guys love the thrill of the hunt. I was merely referring to a large portion of the “anti-outing” crowd who do it solely for financial interest. There is obviously a sub-group of collectors such as yourself who love the hunt. Those people aren’t trying to rip anyone off. But at the same time, need to understand that in this day and age of the internet, people will find out. What’s more, it is a good thing that people find out because they want the card too. I was not inferring that you, of all people, are trying to rip anyone off. In fact, I specifically wrote that the post wasn’t directed at any one member so that you in particular wouldn’t think it was aimed at you.

[swarmee]

So are you guys on the side of outing the auctions to make it fair across the board going into auctionhouses and waiting for an auction, then stand up and scream "THIS CARD IS WORTH $8,000!!!!"? How long do you think the people bidding or even the auctionhouse would allow you to stay there? Counterpoint, after a card sells for way over the auction estimate or market value, do you also stand up and say "THE BUYER IS GETTING SCREWED!!! The sale should not go through!"

That's how I see outing auctions on this board. Even outing recently closed items, because there are plenty of immoral board members or lurkers who will read it, then immediately message the seller to cancel the auction and sell off-eBay themselves. It has happened NUMEROUS times in the few years I've been a member here.

And for you people claiming that everyone knows about every auction on eBay, you're woefully incorrect. People selling items on eBay often have no idea what their items are. If they did some research and put in appropriate keywords (their own due diligence), they would reap more from their listings.

Are only people who have half a million dollars to blow on a Honus Wagner T206 allowed or entitled to buy one? Part of collecting baseball cards is trying to be the one guy who gets the monster hit or finds the diamond in the rough. I know that I will likely never be able to afford one if I don't see it first, and priced in my zone. This board is interesting in that the millionaires are hob-nobbing with the hoi polloi. Just because it makes sense to you doesn't mean it makes sense to the rest of us.

I bought the Mantle/Bruton stamp from COMC for $100 and may now be worth $500 after grading. Do I need to seek out the original consignor and reimburse him his lost entitlement because he didn't have the foresight to grade the card himself? Or do I pat myself on the back for a job well done since I found the card sitting there for sale FOR YEARS and had the intelligence to spend my $10 to slab it?

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Chris-I hear you, but helping the seller achieve a market price is only part of it. Discussing an auction is also giving all potential buyers the opportunity to bid on the item, so no one misses something they collect and may have been looking for. In most markets full disclosure of information is the law. I am just suggesting that full disclosure in the hobby market benefits both the seller and potential buyers, and through increased transparency the hobby in general.

I agree 100%. How does an inefficient market benefit the hobby? How does selling/buying an item at a fraction of market price benefit anyone except the individual collector who is getting a 'steal'. Auctions are meant to bring many buyers to the table and to sell items at what the market will bear. I can not see any wrong when an item sells for what it is worth.

And just stop the "Well I sat for hours/days at my computer searching the darkest holes of the internet to find this auction and now it has been brought to other's attention and I'm not going to be able to underpay for the item."

[mechanicalman]

I find it hilarious that people are using terms like “legwork” and “research” to describe using Google on your phone while watching football. Let’s be honest.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I find it hilarious that people are using terms like “legwork” and “research” to describe using Google on your phone while watching football. Let’s be honest.

I find it beyond hilarious that people are using terms like "inefficient market" to denote not every collector on earth being aware of every single auction. Or that there's an endless plethora of "70 year old widows" all in disarray due to being completely clueless regarding their husbands world class "caramel card" collections, and distinguishing between "NM-MT condition as opposed to EXMT" Completely comical to say the least....
Let's be honest.

[robertsmithnocure]

If this board has no rule against outing an auction, then I think that it is fine to do so.

Not everyone agrees with other’s “unwritten rules.”

[Exhibitman]

None of us own the auction, so none of us have the right to suppress the information on it. And if it isn't a board rule...it isn't a board rule.

Out away!

PS: as a guy who flips stuff all the time I get the frustration of seeing a great deal evaporate but a deal is not something i have a right to unless and until the seller and I agree on terms. At that point anyone stepping into my deal is interfering with my contract. But lets not confuse the two things: outing an auction doesn't affect anyone's right to a deal.

As far as AH's go, the onus is on them to get it right in terms of valuation and lotting.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

If this board has no rule against outing an auction, then I think that it is fine to do so.

Not everyone agrees with other’s “unwritten rules.”

You are correct, but some people will get mad (I didn't say me).

[Rhotchkiss]

I think lost in all this is the fact that the auction house totally screwed the pooch here and did a horrible job for its consigner, and the consigner screwed up by picking this auction house. I will never consign anything to this auction house, but you can bet your ass I am signing up (unless they block me &#128578

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I find it hilarious that people are using terms like “legwork” and “research” to describe using Google on your phone while watching football. Let’s be honest.

But somehow it becomes serious research when someone uses microfiche and has classical music on in the background?