1948-49 Leaf vs. 1952 Topps

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Does the market still consider the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays cards rookies even though they had 1951 Bowman cards? I remember people calling 1987 Topps Mark Mcgwire and Jose Canseco cards rookies too.

No, it doesn't, to my knowledge. But it's a different question, I am not arguing right or wrong, just asking what the market's view of it is and I think most people still consider Leaf to be a 1948 or 48-49 issue.

I rest my case.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-S...EAAOSwTGVbo~Sr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-S...cAAOSwEDtblJc6

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-4...ss!02465!US!-1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-LEAF-G...0AAOSwlGxZmjar

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No, it doesn't, to my knowledge. But it's a different question, I am not arguing right or wrong, just asking what the market's view of it is and I think most people still consider Leaf to be a 1948 or 48-49 issue.

I rest my case.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-S...EAAOSwTGVbo~Sr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-S...cAAOSwEDtblJc6

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-4...ss!02465!US!-1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-LEAF-G...0AAOSwlGxZmjar

Well Peter, most people are absolutely WRONG.....if they "consider Leaf to be a 1948 or 48-49 issue."

The 1949 LEAF BB cards are strictly a 1949 issue. I can write pages proving this fact here; however, I refer you (and any other doubters here) to my OLD CARDBOARD (Issue #9)
article (8 pages) which provides a history of the 1949 LEAF BB set.

Which of these 2 sets is easier ? While the 1952 TOPPS set comprises of 407 subjects (4 times as many cards as the 1949 LEAF), the TOPPS set is easier. The 2nd series (so-called
Short Prints) of 49 subjects (including Paige) of the LEAF set are extremely difficult to find. And of course they are quite expensive ($400 - 500 for commons).



1st Series (issued Spring 1949) …………………………...………… 2nd Series (issued Summer 1949)
. .


Incidentally guys,
The true 1st cards of Yogi Berra, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner, Stan Musial, Jackie Robinson, and Bobby Thomson were issued in the 1947 BOND BREAD set (48 cards).
These are my very first BB cards, which I collected as a very young dude.





TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted, to your knowledge how did people get it so wrong then? It's not like this is ancient history or anything. Who started designating them as 1948 and why didn't someone immediately correct it as whenever it happened, surely there were many people who knew better?

[Lorewalker]

Some cards show a copyright of 1948 and some show 1949. I just did a quick search on ebay and read backs of 5 or 6 cards (far short of the complete set) and they reference stats from the 1948 season. Which would imply these would actually be, as Ted suggests, a 1949 issue. Gonna go read the article he wrote so I can learn more.

[pclpads]

To do a full Leaf set would cover all the variations and the SP's. The latter will eat up your wallet if you can find them and find them in better grades. The '52T, including the high series are more common, pricey, yes, but more common to find than the Leaf SP's.

[ALR-bishop]

Originally Posted by pclpads

To do a full Leaf set would cover all the variations and the SP's. The latter will eat up your wallet if you can find them and find them in better grades. The '52T, including the high series are more common, pricey, yes, but more common to find than the Leaf SP's.

If variations are included, and if that includes the 131- 180 gray backs in the 1952 set, they are much scarcer and harder to find in decent grades than the high number cards. Plus the issue of two variations of the Mantle, Thompson and Robinson. Then too, there is that Bartirome card

And then too there is Bob who is always clouding debates with facts

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted, to your knowledge how did people get it so wrong then? It's not like this is ancient history or anything. Who started designating them as 1948 and why didn't someone immediately correct it as whenever it happened, surely there were many people who knew better?

Peter

My recollection is that PSA (whenever they first started) started labeling these LEAF cards "1948" on their flips. I (and others old dudes like me) informed them that these LEAF cards
were never issued in 1948. The response I got from PSA was their usual BS..... "that's your opinion, but we have ours and it's 1948". No amount of logic to convince them that it was
strictly a 1949 issue was acceptable to them.
Meanwhile, Jim Beckett corrected his Price Guide to reflect a 1949 issue. And, Bob Lemke's Standard Catalog of BB Cards also identified this LEAF set as a 1949 issue.

Peter..... in each of the two series of this 98 subject set 67 % of the cards have a Copyright date of 1948, and the other 33 % are dated 1949. You're a lawyer, have you ever seen a
Copyright date stamped in advance ? I don't think it is legal to stamp a 1949 Copyright on a product that was supposedly issued in 1948.

Furthermore, certain bios of some of the subjects clearly tell us it was impossible for these cards to have been issued in 1948. One of the best examples of this is Lou Boudreau....A.L.
1948 MVP. Well, MVP awards were announced in mid-December 1948.
Another example of this is shown here on the Satchell Paige card. Note the last sentence.... "Should sizzle into his old stride this year".

Here is a LEAF printing detail that absolutely proves these cards were issued in 1949.....In 1948, the backs of Leaf's Boxing and Football sets were printed on WHITE cardboard stock.
In 1949, LEAF switched to printing the backs of their BB and Football cards on GRAY cardboard stock. Duuuuh ! ! Are their any LEAF BB cards with WHITE backs ? ?

Hey guys, I could go on, and on trying to convince you....but, it's bed time now. Have a Good Nite.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted -- what about old price guides (I am sure they existed in the 50s and 60s) and old ads etc., what year did they identify the Leafs as being from?

[bobsbbcards]

I just updated my 49 Leaf Spreadsheet with today's VCP prices. Using $26,000 for the Paige (i.e., there are no recent sales for PSA 5's), the price for a complete set (with variations) in PSA 5 is $65,999. If you want to round that to $66,000, you won't be too far off.

PSA 4 set - $49,968
PSA 6 set - $106,546
PSA 7 set - $202,228
PSA 8 set - $473,477

Edited to add: I voted both

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted -- what about old price guides (I am sure they existed in the 50s and 60s) and old ads etc., what year did they identify the Leafs as being from?

Peter....I just checked-out my old Price Guides, and here is my answer to you:

1979 Sport Americana BB card (1st Jim Beckett) Price Guide …...1948-1949

1987 SCD (1st Bob Lemke) Price Guide...… 1948-1949

Also, if I recall correctly Burdick, Frank Nagy, etc. referred to these LEAF cards as 1949.


Now, can you please answer my question. I will reprise it from my previous post...…

Originally Posted by tedzan

Peter..... in each of the two series of this 98 subject set 67 % of the cards have a Copyright date of 1948, and the other 33 % are dated 1949. You're a lawyer, have you ever
seen a Copyright date stamped in advance ?
I don't think it is legal to stamp a 1949 Copyright on a product that was supposedly issued in 1948.

Thanks


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Hey guys,


Kudos to SGC......they finally got it correct. These LEAF premiums (7" x 5 1/2") were enclosed in the 24-count wax-pack boxes under the wax-packs.
They were given out to the lucky kid that purchased enough LEAF packs which emptied the box. So, these premiums are indeed a 1949 issue. But....
SGC identifies the LEAF BB cards as "1948-49 LEAF GUM CO." Very, very inconsistent ! ! When will these grading companies get it right ? ?



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TED Z

T206 Reference
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