Applying today's societal lens against the HOFers of yesterday

[Peter_Spaeth]

I sure hope not. IMO it's gone way too far when they start renaming college dorms, etc.

[oldjudge]

Twelve US presidents, including Washington and Jefferson, owned slaves. How should that be handled?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Twelve US presidents, including Washington and Jefferson, owned slaves. How should that be handled?

And don't forget Lincoln enjoyed cockfighting!!

I say tear down the memorials, remint the coins, rename the streets and cities.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And don't forget Lincoln enjoyed cockfighting!!

I say tear down the memorials, remint the coins, rename the streets and cities.

I say we rename the United States because we weren't really united when we gained our independence. Maybe "The United Diversity States?"

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by Leon

I say we rename the United States because we weren't really united when we gained our independence. Maybe "The United Diversity States?"

I like it but I think the "Safe Space States of America" has a better ring to it.

[Rookiemonster]

I also believe we should not compare times. Things were very different. The legal marriage age for a girl was very young( I think twelve).you were allowed to own another human and all of there children. Women had little to no rights and often not believed in matters of rape and other crimes.Children could drink alcohol.We could go on and on with the differences.




I always believe Cobb’s image was hurt by racism. I think people that actually have heard of Ty Cobb know two things about him . He played along time ago and he racist.

As for Cap Anson I know people that know baseball pretty well and don’t have a clue how he was.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And don't forget Lincoln enjoyed cockfighting!!

True, but only among consenting male adults.

[GaryPassamonte]

American morality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. As long as white males drive the card market, recent revelations and societal trends will have little impact on prices.

[barrysloate]

Ty Cobb was actually born in 1886.

[gawaintheknight]

Older white males. +1 to you.

Ted

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

American morality, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. As long as white males drive the card market, recent revelations and societal trends will have little impact on prices.

[gawaintheknight]

Obviously by doing things like retiring Jackie Robinson's number for every team and having the Civil Rights Game every year MLB has done some work to recognize the racism of the early game and try to make amends for it. People can choose who they want to collect and if people choose not to collect cards of racist players then that's their choice, just like it's their choice whether to collect cards of players who used PEDs or who engage in domestic violence. It's entirely legitimate. I can't say whether it will happen, but it's possible. I could say more, but no politics. :-)

[jeffmohler]

Interesting question!!

I could see some pressure to remove Cap Anson from the HOF. Its kind of ironic that he and Jackie Robinson now reside in the HOF together.

I am against this kind of thing in general. For the most part I view it as an attempt to erase or alter history, although I certainly get why some people would say that we shouldn't glorify a guy like Anson who apparently did all he could to keep the color line intact in baseball.

What would throwing Anson out of the HOF do to his card values? - I doubt it would do very much. I suspect most pre-war collectors would overlook his HOF membership and look instead at his career numbers.

I sure hope I haven't given offense to anyone. If I did, I certainly didn't mean too!

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by jeffmohler

I am against this kind of thing in general. For the most part I view it as an attempt to erase or alter history, although I certainly get why some people would say that we shouldn't glorify a guy like Anson who apparently did all he could to keep the color line intact in baseball.

Or couldn't it be seen as acknowledging the history and that when darker aspects of people were originally ignored, THAT was really erasing or altering what really happened?

People are complex and have their merits and faults, all of which can and should be considered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Are we also going to reexamine every great historical figure to see if they were sexist, or homophobic, or anti-Semitic, because given the context of their times many likely were. What's the point? We should move forward, not engage in token feel good exercises that really accomplish nothing.

[Mark]

It was my impression that Anson's behavior had already tarnished his image at least a little among collectors.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Mark

It was my impression that Anson's behavior had already tarnished his image at least a little among collectors.

ever own an anson item. i have even sold all of my cobb items except the Punch card that i need for my set... that is just my preference

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Are we also going to reexamine every great historical figure to see if they were sexist, or homophobic, or anti-Semitic, because given the context of their times many likely were. What's the point? We should move forward, not engage in token feel good exercises that really accomplish nothing.

In the larger sense of reexamining great historical figures in general, I guess I see the examination of our history, both successes and failures, as a valuable exercise in learning and growing beyond where we are now. As the famous saying goes, those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. And just a hunch, but I think that people who fit into the categories who were impacted probably don't consider a closer examination as a token exercise.

More to the question of how it might impact HOF ball players - I wouldn't think it would at all. That part of baseball's history has already been a topic for years and I think that there's probably already an expectation that players from certain eras would reflect the societal norms of that time.

[egbeachley]

I just read yesterday that a 26-year old race car driver lost a sponsor because they found out his Dad said a bad word in an interview from the early 1980s. The father didn’t even know it was bad because he just came over from Ireland where it was used differently.

[gawaintheknight]

This is actually a legitimate question and I for one think we as a country should have that conversation. IMO it's more ambiguous for at least some of the presidents than it is for statues of Jefferson Davis, "Silent Sam," etc. The presidents made other contributions to America that have to be weighed against their slaveowning; Davis and others committed treason in defense of slavery and the statues were meant to reinforce segregation and intimidate African-Americans. I'm happy to share sources if you want. (This is history, not politics, right? If not go ahead and delete it with my apologies.)

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Twelve US presidents, including Washington and Jefferson, owned slaves. How should that be handled?

[JustinD]

Going way more modern, I think Mantle would never had been able to avoid a lifetime ban for half of his alcoholism stories. If some of them were more well known (thinking of the story about almost shooting his wife in the head as a joke) there could be a whitewashing movement by some.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Twelve US presidents, including Washington and Jefferson, owned slaves. How should that be handled?

It's already been handled. Those men, as well as many others, owned slaves. We had a war that helped end that. We all recognize that those Presidents owned slaves and that was abhorrent. We also know that those same Presidents did great things. Nobody denies the former or the latter. If you ask anyone who exalts the latter, when asked about the former, they'll acknowledge that the former was as wrong as the latter was right.

As for how this will effect the baseball card market. I don't think it'll have any effect because most people's outrage won't extend to the card market. The card market just isn't important enough, in the grand scheme of things. Plus, we're talking about a vocal minority who believes in the erasing of historical figures for past transgressions, and another vocal minority that is willing to placate them.

[barrysloate]

I don't find it useful to measure old time ball players by the standards of what is happening in America today. Anson was a racist but he lived in the 1880's, so his life has to be examined in an historical context. America was different then. I would be more concerned with how today's ball players and fans comport themselves.

Baseball's biggest problem today is it's kind of boring. Batting average is at a generational low, and strikeouts are at an all time high. That doesn't keep fans glued to the game. So baseball has to find a way to work out its own kinks and make itself more compelling.

As far as the hobby goes there will always be people interested in collecting baseball cards and memorabilia, particularly vintage. If anything, because our society is so damaged, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future, collecting is a way to relax and block out all of the bad stuff. So I am not at all worried about it. The history of the game, and the artifacts we love, are alive and well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If you could only name dorms after famous people who had no serious prejudices that would be considered abhorrent today, you'd have to start naming them the way NYC names its elementary schools. It's a pointless and token exercise IMO.

[A2000]

When the very first sentence of a post is ‘I hope this doesn’t get political,’ the thread will surely become political in a hurry.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by A2000

When the very first sentence of a post is ‘I hope this doesn’t get political,’ the thread will surely become political in a hurry.

So far it's calm and nobody is fighting...hopefully.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you could only name dorms after famous people who had no serious prejudices that would be considered abhorrent today, you'd have to start naming them the way NYC names its elementary schools. It's a pointless and token exercise IMO.

Would you prefer the "Attila the Hun School of Arts and Sciences?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Would you prefer the "Attila the Hun School of Arts and Sciences?"

No, but I wouldn't want to rename every school and building and street and city and memorial named after Washington and Jefferson either because they held slaves, or do some other 1984ish thing in the name of political correctness.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Would you prefer the "Attila the Hun School of Arts and Sciences?"

From everything I've read, Attila was a well read individual brought up as a hostage in the eastern roman empire, and probably had a wealthy romans appreciation for the arts. As a formidable military leader, he also probably had a decent appreciation for science.


So that's a YES!

[Dewey]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't find it useful to measure old time ball players by the standards of what is happening in America today. Anson was a racist but he lived in the 1880's, so his life has to be examined in an historical context. America was different then. I would be more concerned with how today's ball players and fans comport themselves.

I agree. Like I said above, I wouldn't collect Anson, but I can certainly appreciate someone who would based on baseball merits.