Missing Mantle Rookie at National

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by NotVader

Larry Legend asks a great question

Greg?

What can he really do....maybe video? All he can do basically has been done and has been advised on this thread of what else to do.....im sure he is open to suggestions for anything else not obvious (ie. go to police)

[Babe3Ruth3]

It's too bad top card graders like PSA and SGC don't insert an anti-theft tag like they use at stores or a GPS chip, especially on higher value graded cards. The tag could be activated while at a card show, so if the card goes beyond a predetermined radius a very loud siren would go off and maybe set it up with the show that cameras would focus on this area, maybe restrict people from exiting till the card is found too. With the new technology, it should be possible for the owner to enable a GPS tracking system or at least a tag in the cardholder if the high-value card is stolen.

I called both PSA and SGC and brought up the idea, with SGC giving me an E-mail address to pass on this to someone higher up.

[Fred]

Mark, interesting idea.... cost would be pretty substantial, would have to set up circuits at any show that offered that service....

If you've seen the movie "Get Out" then you'll know this scene. If you haven't, then you can skip to about 2:03 of the video.... the lady cop is the person that gave the forwarding email address....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH0jBS408eo


Just having a little fun Mark....don't be mad...

[Babe3Ruth3]

Originally Posted by Fred

Mark, interesting idea.... cost would be pretty substantial, would have to set up circuits at any show that offered that service....

If you've seen the movie "Get Out" then you'll know this scene. If you haven't, then you can skip to about 2:03 of the video.... the lady cop is the person that gave the forwarding email address....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH0jBS408eo


Just having a little fun Mark....don't be mad...

I only get mad when I'm called later for dinner Fred. I guess my thinking stems from the library stopping people from walking out with a $2 book, but we can't find a way to detect when a $1000+ card walks away.

Have a good weekend Fred...

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Babe3Ruth3

I only get mad when I'm called later for dinner Fred. I guess my thinking stems from the library stopping people from walking out with a $2 book, but we can't find a way to detect when a $1000+ card walks away.

Ha! Brings back memories. In high school we used to pull out the book sensors and put them in our friend’s coat pockets. They would set off the alarm and get detained.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

Yes, that pretty much sums up the situation. There were 3 people who last saw/touched the card, including myself. The card “vanished” moments afterward.

It’s a dirty game, people. Beware of those who are supposedly trusted.

I've had guys hold out a card and ask if I want to buy it. When I reach for the card it becomes a tug of war. At that point I don't feel we have developed the necessary rapport it takes to complete the transaction. You can never be too careful I suppose.

[icollectDCsports]

For high-dollar theft targets like this, perhaps the slabs could be placed temporarily in larger and perhaps brightly-colored acrylic cases -- say 8 x 10 -- that would be much more difficult to slip into a pocket or bag. This theft-deterring case would have the card slab inset with overlap around the edges of the slab, so it couldn't easily be popped out without use of a tool to unscrew the case, but it would not cover or obscure the front or back of the slab. Perhaps such a thing already exits, I don't know.

[Republicaninmass]

You build a better mouse trap, they build a better mouse. It's almost impossible to mitigate loss to theft to 0%. Firmer punishments for thieves might help!

[rdwyer]

A friend of mine had $8000 in gold coins stolen from her. The idiot returned to the scene of the crime the next week. He was arrested and brought to jail. Bailed out and 2 weeks later pled guilty to get credit time served. He got to keep the coins. No restitution!

[swarmee]

Yuck, but reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cKM-_CKno

No luck lowpopper?

[Buythatcard]

Suppose that a member of this forum happened to pick up a 51 Mantle PSA 4 from a seller that they did not know and it turned out to be the exact card that went missing. You then tried to contact the seller to tell him that it was stolen but you were not able to find this seller anymore. What would you do?
Would you contact the OP and return the card to him and take a big hit financially?
Would you reslab it and say nothing?
Are you obligated to return this card or are you now the owner?

[pokerplyr80]

If you received stolen property, even without prior knowledge, you are legally and morally obligated to contact the seller. Well I believe you are legally any way. It is was really an honest mistake I feel the right thing to do would be to split the cost with the guy who had the card stolen and hope to recoup the rest of the funds if you can track down the thief.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Babe3Ruth3

It's too bad top card graders like PSA and SGC don't insert an anti-theft tag like they use at stores or a GPS chip, especially on higher value graded cards. The tag could be activated while at a card show, so if the card goes beyond a predetermined radius a very loud siren would go off and maybe set it up with the show that cameras would focus on this area, maybe restrict people from exiting till the card is found too. With the new technology, it should be possible for the owner to enable a GPS tracking system or at least a tag in the cardholder if the high-value card is stolen.

I called both PSA and SGC and brought up the idea, with SGC giving me an E-mail address to pass on this to someone higher up.

Sorry but this would be a HUGE invasion of privacy. I don't want someone at SGC knowing where my cards are located at all times. In fact, I would think that would invite more theft than it would deter, as I'm sure TPG's wouldn't invest in the necessary technology to protect a network that would contain the locations of millions of dollars in cards.

[Republicaninmass]

I believe the cops just take it, and the buyer is SOL unless he can sue the seller. Meeting halfway would be on the person who had the card stolen. Otherwise, he or could just have it back.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If you received stolen property, even without prior knowledge, you are legally and morally obligated to contact the seller. Well I believe you are legally any way. It is was really an honest mistake I feel the right thing to do would be to split the cost with the guy who had the card stolen and hope to recoup the rest of the funds if you can track down the thief.

It's easy to say split the cost but how about this scenario (Not saying this happened with the OP).

How about if someone owns some high end baseball cards and they are extremely careless with them and some of them get stolen. Then someone goes and buys one of these cards which could be 3 years worth of their card budget (Let's say its $30K). They have no knowledge of this card being stolen and now because of a careless seller they have to share the burden of cost.

Maybe legally this is what is supposed to happen but I don't think its fair and just that this unsuspecting buyer should be on the hook for any of this either.

Is there any insurance out there that covers dealers at shows? I know there are a couple of companies out there that do insurance but I would imagine someone offers insurance to people who sell items at shows/conventions etc.

I feel terrible for the OP and I hope he gets his card back. In no way am I implying he was careless, but I am throwing out a scenario that isn't black and white.

[Rich Klein]

Is there any insurance out there that covers dealers at shows? I know there are a couple of companies out there that do insurance but I would imagine someone offers insurance to people who sell items at shows/conventions etc

Yes those collectible insurance places also have insurance for vendors who go to shows. The rates are higher than they are for collectors

Rich

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

It's easy to say split the cost but how about this scenario (Not saying this happened with the OP).

How about if someone owns some high end baseball cards and they are extremely careless with them and some of them get stolen. Then someone goes and buys one of these cards which could be 3 years worth of their card budget (Let's say its $30K). They have no knowledge of this card being stolen and now because of a careless seller they have to share the burden of cost.

Maybe legally this is what is supposed to happen but I don't think its fair and just that this unsuspecting buyer should be on the hook for any of this either.

Is there any insurance out there that covers dealers at shows? I know there are a couple of companies out there that do insurance but I would imagine someone offers insurance to people who sell items at shows/conventions etc.

I feel terrible for the OP and I hope he gets his card back. In no way am I implying he was careless, but I am throwing out a scenario that isn't black and white.

Careless or not if something is stolen from you and later identified you have a right to get it back regardless of who owns it now or how it was obtained. I see your point, but it would actually be the guy who the card was stolen from doing the current owner the favor by splitting the cost. All things considered I personally feel that would be the most fair solution in such a situation.

If I had bought this card not knowing it was stolen I would contact the seller and try to work out some kind of arrangement. I would not want to deal with any legal repercussions or damage to by hobby reputation but trying to keep a stolen card or an attempt to get it into a new holder for resale.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

It's easy to say split the cost but how about this scenario (Not saying this happened with the OP).

How about if someone owns some high end baseball cards and they are extremely careless with them and some of them get stolen. Then someone goes and buys one of these cards which could be 3 years worth of their card budget (Let's say its $30K). They have no knowledge of this card being stolen and now because of a careless seller they have to share the burden of cost.

Maybe legally this is what is supposed to happen but I don't think its fair and just that this unsuspecting buyer should be on the hook for any of this either.

Is there any insurance out there that covers dealers at shows? I know there are a couple of companies out there that do insurance but I would imagine someone offers insurance to people who sell items at shows/conventions etc.

I feel terrible for the OP and I hope he gets his card back. In no way am I implying he was careless, but I am throwing out a scenario that isn't black and white.

Agreed. There's a lot of scenario's, here's another. Let's say you have an unscrupulous seller (geez, that never happens ) and he reports a card stolen, but he made up the story for insurance purposes. That card is later traded/sold via private transaction by the seller who reported it stolen and then the card is sold a time or two even after that. Then the original seller who reported the card stolen finds out who currently owns it and says, "Wait a minute. That was my card. I reported it stolen. Here's the police report." And if I may borrow from part of your scenario, let's say the buyer saved 3 years of his card budget ($30K), why should he be out of $30K because of some fraudulent seller? I'm sorry, but just because someone reports something stolen DOES NOT make it theirs once the item turns up. You're right, it's not always that black and white.

I, too, am not implying that anything like that happened in this case, but there are too many scenarios to say just because someone reports something stolen and it later turns up that it should be returned to the one that reported it stolen.

[rdwyer]

It's too bad top card graders like PSA and SGC don't insert an anti-theft tag like they use at stores or a GPS chip, especially on higher value graded cards. The tag could be activated while at a card show, so if the card goes beyond a predetermined radius a very loud siren would go off and maybe set it up with the show that cameras would focus on this area, maybe restrict people from exiting till the card is found too. With the new technology, it should be possible for the owner to enable a GPS tracking system or at least a tag in the cardholder if the high-value card is stolen.

I like this idea. Once activated, you would be able to go to findmycard.com. (Just like Apple does with their iphones.) No one complains about that. But only when activated. You could also erase the card.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Agreed. There's a lot of scenario's, here's another. Let's say you have an unscrupulous seller (geez, that never happens ) and he reports a card stolen, but he made up the story for insurance purposes. That card is later traded/sold via private transaction by the seller who reported it stolen and then the card is sold a time or two even after that. Then the original seller who reported the card stolen finds out who currently owns it and says, "Wait a minute. That was my card. I reported it stolen. Here's the police report." And if I may borrow from part of your scenario, let's say the buyer saved 3 years of his card budget ($30K), why should he be out of $30K because of some fraudulent seller? I'm sorry, but just because someone reports something stolen DOES NOT make it theirs once the item turns up. You're right, it's not always that black and white.

I, too, am not implying that anything like that happened in this case, but there are too many scenarios to say just because someone reports something stolen and it later turns it that it should be returned to the one that reported it stolen.

This is one of the points I was making earlier. I never got a receipt from a card show or shop from a card I purchased. I could go sell some good cards then walk out of the show and call the cops saying my card have been stolen.


Jesse did you just say moral obligation? Thought you weren’t in to that kind of stuff. Why should someone who got anything stolen from them pay for it back?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

This is one of the points I was making earlier. I never got a receipt from a card show or shop from a card I purchased. I could go sell some good cards then walk out of the show and call the cops saying my card have been stolen.


Jesse did you just say moral obligation? Thought you weren’t in to that kind of stuff. Why should someone who got anything stolen from them pay for it back?

That's funny because after reading some of your posts I question your sense of morality as well. Since in the previously discussed situation there would now be two innocent victims I dont think it's right that either should have to eat 100% of the loss. A lot would depend on the specifics and what could be proven. But if I had a card stolen from me and someone reached out to me to say they bought it down the road for cash and didn't remember from who, I would be willing to work something out to get the card back.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That's funny because after reading some of your posts I question your sense of morality as well. Since in the previously discussed situation there would now be two innocent victims I dont think it's right that either should have to eat 100% of the loss. A lot would depend on the specifics and what could be proven. But if I had a card stolen from me and someone reached out to me to say they bought it down the road for cash and didn't remember from who, I would be willing to work something out to get the card back.

I don’t see why you would question my morality. But I see what your saying like a my dog went missing reward. Not a bad idea but at the same time if I found someone’s dog I probably just give it back and say keep the reward money.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I don’t see why you would question my morality. But I see what your saying like a my dog went missing reward. Not a bad idea but at the same time if I found someone’s dog I probably just give it back and say keep the reward money.

And I dont see why you would question mine. I found dog is quite different than a purchased 5 or 10 grand Mantle RC.

[rainier2004]

So my understanding on this...

If you have property that was reported stolen, you cannot convey good title on that item. I believe the law dictates you go back to the person you bought the card from and get your money back, then they go to who they bought it from and get their money back and down the line. Even if the insurance has paid on a claim the property in still good as it belongs to the insurance company now.

There are several ways to handle it though very dependent on the specific circumstances.

That sucks to have your card stolen though...

[drcy]

Yes, with a stolen item, the item goes straight to the rightful owner (presumably the person that the item was stolen from), but you get the $$ refund from the person you bought it from. That's why they tell you to keep the receipt.

That's also why, despite criticism from the chatboard rabble ( ), auction houses are using sound legal judgment when they don't give refunds to a person who is not the direct buyer. If you think about it, giving a refund to a person who was not only wasn't the buyer but who you may have never met before is goofy. If they give the refund to anyone down the buying food chain, multiple people may be asking for full refunds on one item.

I remember on this board when someone wanted refund from the original auction house. Not only wasn't he the original buyer from the auction house, but he insisted the auction house pay what he paid for it years later and not what the auction house originally sold it for. He got angry when I said that that's not the way things work nor should work.

Along the lines of the above paragraph, I also find it amusing when collectors years after the fact assign rules and conditions to LOAs or auction house rules that appear nowhere on the LOA. "The LOA says one-year money back guarantee, but I think the should be lifetime triple money back guarantee. Everyone with me?" While he's at it, he might as include "Plus a new car and a date with Charlize Theron." And let me take a wild guess: he'd be pissed if the auction house retroactively changed the terms of the letter in their favor ("No, no, you've got it wrong. I've clearly just written in the margin that YOU owe ME a new car and date with Charlize Theron. No, just a second here, where's my pen?: 'Two cars.' No, wait, 'Plus you have to wear really ugly clothes for a year and tell people that your name is Butt.' Sorry, there's no more blank space on the letter to write on, so I win!")

[PowderedH2O]

If you really wanted to keep track of a card, you could have some sort of portable security system like stores do. Put a sticker on your graded slab and if you don't deactivate it, it goes off as soon as it leaves your area and sounds an alarm. Yes, stickers can be removed, but if it takes someone 3 minutes to take off a sticker within 10 feet of you, it is less likely they will spend the time doing so.

[Republicaninmass]

On side note, this Clemente was stolen from my home by a family friend. I've searched and searched but it has never come back up for sale. Bet yo azz I'll be contacting the auction house if it came up, and my receipt is my invoice from heritage





https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c.../a/714-81237.s

[irv]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

On side note, this Clemente was stolen from my home by a family friend. I've searched and searched but it has never come back up for sale. Bet yo azz I'll be contacting the auction house if it came up, and my receipt is my invoice from heritage





https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c.../a/714-81237.s

Wow. 2 cards stolen by someone the owners knew. I hate reading about these thefts, but it is really more shocking/upsetting when you read about them being stolen by people the owners likely knew and trusted.

I recently went through something similar where I misplaced some hockey cards of mine, including my Tavares RC and a few other cards I collected when I was just a boy.

I searched and searched but bit my tongue mentioning anything to my son who I assumed was one of his friends while we were away at our trailer.

Thankfully I didn't as I have a feeling this would of upset my son greatly thinking I didn't trust his friends.

I had a similar story when I was quite young regarding my sisters watch. A friend took a shine to her unique watch. It went missing for days after but I actually accused him of stealing it as he was the last person I seen holding and admiring it.

Long story short, it was found under a couch in our rec room about a week or so later.

The guy I accused of stealing it is now the Chief of Police in my hometown.

Of course I apologized profusely but our friendship was never the same afterward, sadly.

[NotVader]

Originally Posted by lowpopper

1951 Bowman Mickey Mantle PSA 4

Cert# 41944340

Any info as to whereabouts are appreciated.

If this pops up anywhere, contact me immediately. Thanks.

As we all now know, Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland has this Stolen Mantle.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by NotVader

As we all now know, Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland has this Stolen Mantle.

Is this real?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Is this real?

I am still trying to figure out what he means?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by NotVader

As we all now know, Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland has this Stolen Mantle.

Why does NotVader not need to display his/her name? I thought I read in the rules that our names must be posted, no?

And why has this person posted more times on this thread than the person whose card was stolen?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[irv]

Originally Posted by NotVader

Greg,

Heard about this missing card and Joined this Forum today specifically to find you.
We met briefly at National when you were viewing my Step-Uncle's RED HEART set and you two were talking about doing the "Purple Sticker" on his Mantle 4.5 VG-EX+. Not sure if you remember me? I am the girl who said 'I cant believe you guys are collecting Dog Food Labels LOL!' I had Florida Gators hat.

I saw you at ice cream stand late on last day of show don't think you saw me you were in an intense conversation with your partner and Earl Johnson the gentleman who was let-go by SGC. Is this related? The three of you were obsessing about a card (the mantle?) you were viewing an image of on a phone not sure if this was before or after card vanished? It probably already was gone at that time and yall were discussing situation if not thought this tidbit might help to solve. Call or message me if I can do anything you have my Uncle's Number he said to say he feels awful about this story.

From Sunny Florida,

C. Vader

He is a "she" guys.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by NotVader

As we all now know, Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland has this Stolen Mantle.

????

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by NotVader

As we all now know, Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland has this Stolen Mantle.

but old earl died in 2012????

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Why does NotVader not need to display his/her name? I thought I read in the rules that our names must be posted, no?

And why has this person posted more times on this thread than the person whose card was stolen?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Names need to be posted when they give an opinion of a person or business. Once I figure out what she (she is a she) is talking about then we can go from there. I think it was just some sarcasm.

[barrysloate]

Never mind. I mixed up two different posters. My bad.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

This guy has opened at least three old threads. Something is fishy. He needs to identify himself.

This guy is Chri.stina Va.der.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Leon

Names need to be posted when they give an opinion of a person or business. Once I figure out what she (she is a she) is talking about then we can go from there. I think it was just some sarcasm.

Seems like an odd post to make 6 days after the last one?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

This guy is Chri.stina Va.der.

There's another guy who opened several threads regarding stolen cards, and didn't put his name out. That's who I meant. I confused the two.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There's another guy who opened several threads regarding stolen cards, and didn't put his name out. That's who I meant. I confused the two.

I thought you might be thinking of him, actually. Fixed now. Now back to your Lazy Boy!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by NotVader

As we all now know, Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland has this Stolen Mantle.

???

Earl Johnson that used to work for SGC?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Babe3Ruth3

It's too bad top card graders like PSA and SGC don't insert an anti-theft tag like they use at stores or a GPS chip, especially on higher value graded cards. The tag could be activated while at a card show, so if the card goes beyond a predetermined radius a very loud siren would go off and maybe set it up with the show that cameras would focus on this area, maybe restrict people from exiting till the card is found too. With the new technology, it should be possible for the owner to enable a GPS tracking system or at least a tag in the cardholder if the high-value card is stolen.

I called both PSA and SGC and brought up the idea, with SGC giving me an E-mail address to pass on this to someone higher up.

Or at the very least, some sort of invisible ink identifier placed on the back of the card visible only under a unique portion of the light spectrum... That way one could alert the TPG's and they could check incoming subs for the mark before starting the grading process... Of course they would have to cooperate with each other if they use different portions of the spectrum to make the mark appear...

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Agreed. There's a lot of scenario's, here's another. Let's say you have an unscrupulous seller (geez, that never happens ) and he reports a card stolen, but he made up the story for insurance purposes. That card is later traded/sold via private transaction by the seller who reported it stolen and then the card is sold a time or two even after that. Then the original seller who reported the card stolen finds out who currently owns it and says, "Wait a minute. That was my card. I reported it stolen. Here's the police report." And if I may borrow from part of your scenario, let's say the buyer saved 3 years of his card budget ($30K), why should he be out of $30K because of some fraudulent seller? I'm sorry, but just because someone reports something stolen DOES NOT make it theirs once the item turns up. You're right, it's not always that black and white.

I, too, am not implying that anything like that happened in this case, but there are too many scenarios to say just because someone reports something stolen and it later turns up that it should be returned to the one that reported it stolen.

I believe in that case if the original seller was paid by his/her insurance company, technically the card would belong to the insurance company not the original seller.... Though I would think that by blowing the whistle on it the original seller may open himself up to some unwanted legal scrutiny...

[LarryLegend33]

Hey all such a tragic thing to read about any update on the missing hope it’s found!

[LarryLegend33]

Is it crazy to ask how/why the building has no video or security? This victimized dealer is at very front of the room, correct?

[Jobu]

I am curious about this too. Is this the same Earl? This also makes me want to ask why he no longer works for SGC.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

???

Earl Johnson that used to work for SGC?

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

I was under the impression that he didn't make the move with SGC to Florida.

[NotVader]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Why does NotVader not need to display his/her name? I thought I read in the rules that our names must be posted, no?

And why has this person posted more times on this thread than the person whose card was stolen?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Inquiring MIND it seems --- and not sure what you are asking at that ?

I am saying Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland is the person who is in possession of LOWPOPPER's missing mantle. Can I be more clear? I am available should anyone need me.

At Disney This Week,

C. Vader

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by NotVader

Inquiring MIND it seems --- and not sure what you are asking at that ?

I am saying Mr Earl John Son of Cleveland is the person who is in possession of LOWPOPPER's missing mantle. Can I be more clear? I am available should anyone need me.

At Disney This Week,

C. Vader

WOW!!! I never would have pegged Earl as a thief!