Now that the dust has settled....observations regarding The 2018 Cleveland National

[Leon]

It is ok to disagree just put your name next to your post. thanks

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

Respectfully disagree. I know you don't allow political discussions here but there are many stories of police abuse and misconduct that make many people, especially racial minorities, legitimately nervous to see the police even when they have done nothing wrong. If you want, I can give examples and statistics. If you want to think of me as an idiot that's fine with me. Thanks for letting me speak my piece.

[Copa7]

Coming from a different point of view, I was brought in for my experience with soccer and international sports.

This was my first National Convention. I am well versed with the major auction houses and thought that it was quite like mini museum's with the many artifacts on exhibit. The big difference being that they could be purchased.

I inquired with quite a good number of dealers about soccer inventory. Most still had the puzzled look and replied with a no. I smiled and thanked them.

However, with the major card makers all having soccer product - Panini, Leaf and Topps all had freebees that were soccer nirvana to my eyes.

And then there were the dealers ahead of the curve - with both vintage soccer cards, and new high end stock for the enlightened investors.

But what I always enjoy, and did at this show, was going through bargain boxes and just finding cool cards.

Aside from the soccer I unearthed, there were vintage cards of motorcycles, native American Indians, 1954 football, and original Star Wars stickers that I added to my collection.

All in all, there was something for anyone and everyone if they wanted to dig for treasures.

I'll go next year to Chicago and have something to compare it with.

Thanks for reading.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

Insulted? Really? Though I wasn't in Cleveland this year I have had similar experiences with dealers over the years. My observation with these kind of dealers is that they are either Type A personalities with ego's the size of the room and are projecting their ego on you or they are the socially awkward type who shouldn't be in the business of dealing with the public. I try to find and spend money with dealers who are pleasant, greet you at their table, engage in conversation and are willing to negotiate. Makes the whole card collecting experience much more enjoyable.

Bob

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by wazoo

A few bad eggs can besmirch the overall image of a group of men and women who put their lives on the line for us each day -- I'm thankful for law enforcement and for all of their work that goes unnoticed. Abuse of power comes with all positions, it's not just about statistics. It's our job to stay vigilant and speak up when such injustices occur. Thin blue line....

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by basesareempty

Insulted? Really? Though I wasn't in Cleveland this year I have had similar experiences with dealers over the years. My observation with these kind of dealers is that they are either Type A personalities with ego's the size of the room and are projecting their ego on you or they are the socially awkward type who shouldn't be in the business of dealing with the public. I try to find and spend money with dealers who are pleasant, greet you at their table, engage in conversation and are willing to negotiate. Makes the whole card collecting experience much more enjoyable.

Bob

sure, Bob...in a perfect world it'd be nice to only deal with pleasant. reasonable people.

[Bpm0014]

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.


Coming from a family of all cops, and a huge supporter of Blue Lives Matter, I'm not sure if your figures are 100% accurate. Or maybe they are. Just seems a little off to me....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.


Coming from a family of all cops, and a huge supporter of Blue Lives Matter, I'm not sure if your figures are 100% accurate. Or maybe they are. Just seems a little off to me....

His stats are crazy. All Lives Matter. That said let's get back to the topic.
So the 2018 National was great and everyone had a good time. What Rich K said above is problematic. If all of the 2019 tables are sold out before the next year even starts one would think they would work to rectify that. Mike Berkus (RIP friend) wouldn't be happy at all about the way the National is being run with respect to not satisfying dealers and therefore not making it the best it can be. I never recall this issue when Mike was the main man.
.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sure, Bob...in a perfect world it'd be nice to only deal with pleasant. reasonable people.

I guess the stuff I buy isn't super rare like some of you guys collect so I have more dealers to choose to deal with.

Bob

[polakoff]

My two shekels as a very small time, low end dealer and similarly a low end collector.

This was my second National (first was AC in 2016). At both I set up with some buddies and had essentially one 8-ft table for myself. The vast majority of what I sell is boxes ranging from 50 cents to 5 dollars, with a few cases of stuff. Almost all 50s/60s/70s, nothing later and very little earlier. I try to cater toward the OBC type crowd, set builders, etc. I make every attempt to bring short prints, variations, errors, and so on.

As you can tell, that's not a big money making endeavor. Like I said, I'm small time, low end. I mainly do small local shows, but like to go to the National and setting up is a way to cover some expenses. My buddies graciously watch my table for me while I walk the room and spend 4, 5, or 6 hours at Chandy Greenholt's table.

As a dealer, my biggest observation was that the crowds seemed lighter than 2 years ago in AC. I know I wasn't the only dealer who felt that way. In some ways this was odd as I still had the same volume of sales I had in AC (I keep meticulous sales data), but I know there were fewer people at my table overall. The other strange thing is that in AC, my strongest day was Saturday, and in Cleveland it was my weakest day. My strongest day this year was Thursday, followed by Sunday (which sort of blew my mind -- Sunday was a waste for me in AC).

As a buyer, I did love the layout. Found my way back to several tables without even writing the table numbers down. In AC even when I did write info down I couldn't navigate back to them. Food offerings were better which I appreciated as a guy who likes to eat, but I also feel like as a dealer may have hurt crowds some, because there was so much seating near the concessions (including several bars!). One thing I noticed was that there weren't a whole lot of dealers selling what I sell, which is disappointing to me as a buyer because that's what I like to buy, but encouraging as a seller because it's almost as if low end 50s-70s stuff is a niche market. Plenty of "set filler" dealers with all their sets in binders or boxes, sorted by year and number, but not as many boxes to dig through or cases with low end bargains. Case in point: #1 item for me was the lowest grade 1949 Bowman Snider I could find. I couldn't find anything low grade. #2 item was 53 Bowman Reese, same deal. I think I saw a PSA 2 Reese somewhere but I don't want a graded one. Everything else was high end graded or high end raw, nothing beat up enough to fit in my collection. Tons of ridiculous high end modern stuff, tons of ridiculous high end vintage stuff. Plenty of second-tier type stuff -- I mean in the several hundred dollar range. In fact this was where I saw what I thought were the best deals, it just wasn't stuff I wanted.

In general, I think the east/central bias is a mistake, and rumor is the committee that chooses cities wants it in Chicago permanently. I think that's a huge mistake for many reasons (money being chief among them, it's the most expensive place to stay). Even having been to only one previous National, I saw mostly the same dealers and in fact many of the same customers. Having it somewhere southeast, south central, or out west would be great.

[gawaintheknight]

Done. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Leon

It is ok to disagree just put your name next to your post. thanks

[david_l]

You are so off with your figures it's appalling. Utterly shocking misconception of police violence in America. I'm not sure if this is willful suspension of belief, ignorance, or something even worse. Perhaps think of using any search engine or newspaper to check these figures before stating them like you know it's a fact (and showing how grossly misinformed you are on such an important subject).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.1a5e901ef89b

This is not just some opinion.

Wow guy. Just wow.

I hate to derail but mercy...

Okay... National. Great times..

David Lu$^ig

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.

[david_l]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Tons of tables, great to see a huge turnout but, personally, I wish there had been a touch more diversity.

Just take a look around and it's pretty clear what a lot of the problem is. This thread (and much of this hobby) is far from inclusive and far from welcoming.

Last post in the thread..

David Lu$^ig

Originally Posted by Leon

All Lives Matter.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016...l-lives-matter

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Here are 37 with about half being in the DFW area...It seems there is one on every corner in parts of the North DFW area where I frequently drive. There are 2 on 635 within a few miles of each other, One near Coit and one near Midway or Marsh....... I live near Allen and know of the one in Allen (been there 7 yrs now) and one in PLano not far from me too. Good cheap burgers, "make it animal style dry with extra pickles and make the fries crispy please."

http://www.in-n-out.com/locations/texas

Back to the original subject. It sounds like almost everyone who went had a great time. I think it's wonderful as it's great for the hobby. When I go I usually have a good time seeing old friends and cards I can't (or won't) afford. And every now and then I am able to find a nugget too.
That said, I sure hope the National finds a better way to accommodate more dealers in the future. So far the National number to call hasn't been answering their phone or voicemails for going on 2 weeks now. What other business does that and succeeds? It's a modern day miracle. I think of sheeple.....and I am one too .

.

try it mustard fried with chopped chilis. your mouth will thank you.

[bensie]

I always want to attend, but with the cost of travel I always decide to stay home and use that money to buy one or two nice cards online instead.

[jefferyepayne]

I go every year. The reality now is that you can find more items online (and usually at a better price) than you can at any card show, including the National. You used to hear that you would see things at the National that you'd never seen before. While this is still a possibility, it doesn't happen as much now with all of the online auctions out there.

However you can't have a beer with long time friends online. You can't sit at the bar and talk to a former MLBer online. You can't sit next to a collector and trade cards online ... or put a face with a name (ID) ... or experience a show with your kids. There are so many reasons beyond cards to make the trek each year to the National. The National is our hobby's yearly convention. If you look at it as that, its a can't miss event even if you come home with nothing but memories.

jeff

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

I go every year. The reality now is that you can find more items online (and usually at a better price) than you can at any card show, including the National. You used to hear that you would see things at the National that you'd never seen before. While this is still a possibility, it doesn't happen as much now with all of the online auctions out there.

However you can't have a beer with long time friends online. You can't sit at the bar and talk to a former MLBer online. You can't sit next to a collector and trade cards online ... or put a face with a name (ID) ... or experience a show with your kids. There are so many reasons beyond cards to make the trek each year to the National. The National is our hobby's yearly convention. If you look at it as that, its a can't miss event even if you come home with nothing but memories.

jeff

So well said Jeff. I agree 100%. Catching up with old friends and making new ones and experiencing all of it with my son was absolutely priceless. Showing him what I collect and why and digging through boxes to find what he collects and introducing him to my friends in the hobby. Awesome stuff.
One highlight was finding his first prewar baseball card as he is a new and shiny football card collector. A PSA 4 Hughie Jennings T206 both arms pose that is nearly perfectly centered and very very nice for the grade at a very fair price.
That card now resides right in the middle of his display case in his room. And he is pumped about it. Sharing that moment with him is something I will truly never forget.
I love this hobby. I love the relationships that have been made. I love the convention. I try to go into it with expectancy instead of expectation. I don’t expect to find some amazing deal but it’s cool if I do. I don’t expect to find exactly what I am looking for but it’s cool if I do. I don’t expect everything to go a certain way. I go with the hope of having a great time for the right reasons and it always seems to happen. And sometimes I even bring home great stuff purchased from great people.
Eric

[swarmee]

This guy wasn't enthused about his experience with SGC:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1230794

Oh, and on that topic, SGC changed their labels for the Pristine graded cards to be abbreviated as PRI instead of PR, which some were confusing with PR for Poor.

So now we have the following grades at the three major TPGs:
BCCG 10: Mint or Better (most people value this as an 8 or 8.5)
BGS/BVG/PSA/SGC 9: Mint
SGC 9.5: Mint+ *newly invented grade: 97 / 9.25?*
BGS/BVG 9.5, SGC 10 (old 98) Black Label, and PSA 10: Gem Mint
BGS 10 Pristine comes in Black Label for all 10 subgrades or Gold Label for one 9.5 subgrade.
SGC Pristine Gold Label (no number, old 100)

[Spike]

As a low grade and type collector, Nationals provide more stuff to sift though than other shows, even if walking on all that concrete takes a lasting toll. This year, I found an above-average amount of lower-grade material and saw it at tables earlier in the week than other years. That gets a thumbs-up from me. (Based on reports so far, that didn't mean people were having bad weeks and not selling anything, as I've heard as a "sign" at some other Nationals.)

Prices for the bigger names felt 20-25% higher than you'd pay online, despite a high number of dealers showing big-name cards and arguably competing against each other. My one significant buy, a low-grade Sports Kings Cobb, cost $240 from a dealer who didn't have a great table location, which might've helped me in that deal. I came ready to buy a similar condition Sport Kings Ruth and didn't find many to choose from, so left without that hit.

I appreciated that you can retreat to carpeted promoter areas and rested my legs several times near eBay's booth. Cleveland's layout is OK, since you can see almost everything in straight lines. It does seem beholden to big booths needing to use the aircraft doors for load-in and load-out. As a visitor, I'd like to see Topps, Panini, and so forth as a side-to-side presence in the middle of the show surrounding the ferris wheel. Having them end-to-end along one edge feels like two shows that happen to be in one building.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

My first time at The National as well. Sounds like I'm the only one, but I was just a tiny bit disappointed. Tons of tables, great to see a huge turnout but, personally, I wish there had been a touch more diversity. Loved all the big-4 cards, espically the number of rarities. I was hoping for some of the harder to find items from other sports.

Plenty of examples from 2015-2018 but only saw one Pele, two Ali RCs(saw both sell for good $) and nearly zip from others- soccer, boxing, tennis, racing, golf (a few 81 Donruss), etc. You pay for a table, you can put out whatever you like, but with 600+ tables, I thought there might be a little more variety.

That said, I'll probably be there next year in Chicago.

I had a showcase of only boxing, as did at least two other dealers. There was also one dealer who is 90% boxing. I expect i will be back at the show next year at the LOTG booth with more boxing.

[Rich Klein]

At the hotel I was staying in, there were either 2-3 boxing collectors I met at the breakfast served at said hotel.

[Arazi4442]

Hey Adam, guess I missed your table. Maybe I was a little punchy after 3 days of wandering. If I'm in Chicago next year, I'll definitely look you up at LOTG.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I had a showcase of only boxing, as did at least two other dealers. There was also one dealer who is 90% boxing. I expect i will be back at the show next year at the LOTG booth with more boxing.

[topcat61]

You know, even Lionel Carter complained about the prices at the 1972 Detroit Show. Value is a double edged sword, but in my humble opinion, the hobby isn't today how Jefferson Burdick and company envisioned it to be. There are plenty of options on purchasing what you want either at the National or ebay and in many cases you can simply walk away if you don't feel comfortable with the transaction -personally, I'd feel better doing that than to overspend on a card leaving me with that pit at the bottom of your stomach feeling -you know the kind, most of us do...I wanted to attend this National but Camden Yards kept calling my name, so next year Chicago it is and I cant wait! Perhaps I will meet some of you fine folks, shake your hands and talk about cards.

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by topcat61

...I wanted to attend this National but Camden Yards kept calling my name, so next year Chicago it is and I cant wait! ...

Yes, Camden Yards is a wonderful stadium, but I don't understand how it could be calling your name this year. Oh wait, I think I get it - you went to root for the visiting team!