Another high end sticker -- "PC"??

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I’ve bought many cards from Jeff and Brady over the years. I’ve paid a strong premium for every single one, but every price was well worth it for the quality. These two guys have been buying and selling cards that look outstanding for the grade for years, and it’s heavily influenced my collecting habits. Is their PC sticker a “gimmick” designed to command higher prices? Is it motivated by greed? No and no. Neither of these dudes are paying their mortgage from sales of baseball cards. They are not trying to squeeze an extra 5% profit with these stickers.

As Jesse has articulated, my sense is they are simply trying to bring attention to the fact that centered cards are commanding huge premiums in the market place, and perhaps it would benefit the TPGs to take notice and adjust their grading policies to keep up with the reality in the marketplace. Do I personally like any stickers on my holders? No, I do not. I crave simplicity and cleanliness. But I do support the bigger idea of the TPGs recognizing true eye appeal more than they currently do.

So the way to call attention to the huge prices centered cards command is to put a sticker on them and then charge a huge price? Something about that doesn't sit right.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the way to call attention to the huge prices centered cards command is to put a sticker on them and then charge a huge price? Something about that doesn't sit right.

Collectors like myself and Sam are already paying big premium for centered cards. That won't change with or without the PC sticker. But these stickers or a positive psa qualifier might bring in bigger bids and offers from those who might not ordinarily make them. The qualifier could also bring in the same from the registry guys if bonus points are awarded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Collectors like myself and Sam are already paying big premium for centered cards. That won't change with or without the PC sticker. But these stickers or a positive psa qualifier might bring in bigger bids and offers from those who might not ordinarily make them. The qualifier could also bring in the same from the registry guys if bonus points are awarded.

Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800898]Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?[/QUOTE

Peter, this is not my thing, so I haven’t thought too much about it, but it’s cetainly not as hard as you think it is.

In fact, it wouldn’t be too difficult at all to set a scientific standard.

To me, I’d apply the qualifier to any card with the appearance of 50/50. Now, a T206 with 47/53 might actually appear to average eyes as 50/50. You could conduct some qualitative testing to ascertain what level of measurable centering falls within the parameters of appearing 50/50.

So it could be done with less subjectivity than you think.

All that said, qualifier or not, I’ll continue to pay strong for centered cards and some folks will continue to question those purchases. Not a big deal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=mechanicalman;1800908]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?[/QUOTE

Peter, this is not my thing, so I haven’t thought too much about it, but it’s cetainly not as hard as you think it is.

In fact, it wouldn’t be too difficult at all to set a scientific standard.

To me, I’d apply the qualifier to any card with the appearance of 50/50. Now, a T206 with 47/53 might actually appear to average eyes as 50/50. You could conduct some qualitative testing to ascertain what level of measurable centering falls within the parameters of appearing 50/50.

So it could be done with less subjectivity than you think.

All that said, qualifier or not, I’ll continue to pay strong for centered cards and some folks will continue to question those purchases. Not a big deal.

They would still question it with a formal qualifier, IMO. And who cares if they do?

[mechanicalman]

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1800909]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

They would still question it with a formal qualifier, IMO. And who cares if they do?

Peter, let’s say you’re willing to part with your Beethoven RC Super Refractor PSA 8, which is a pop 2. However, the other dude who owns the other 8 puts his up for sale in the same auction. Yours, however, is better centered. Would you feel good relying on the eye test to ensure you get the higher price? Sure. But would you feel BETTER if there was a designation deeming yours slightly better? I bet you would.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=mechanicalman;1800914]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Peter, let’s say you’re willing to part with your Beethoven RC Super Refractor PSA 8, which is a pop 2. However, the other dude who owns the other 8 puts his up for sale in the same auction. Yours, however, is better centered. Would you feel good relying on the eye test to ensure you get the higher price? Sure. But would you feel BETTER if there was a designation deeming yours slightly better? I bet you would.

I would hope the auction house would not put both in the same auction, but if they did, then if they had a large scan and they emphasized the centering in the description (just in case anyone somehow missed it), I would be secure. Let's not forget a seller is always free to call attention to a card's features beyond the number grade.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Again, the question I put to you before: what's your cutoff for the C, how do you propose measuring it, and does it apply to all cards or just before a certain year?

I'm not sure where the exact cutoff would be, but the goal should be so that the top 5-10% of any card would qualify. I'm sure PSA could figure something out. 53/47 or so should work for most vintage issues.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'm not sure where the exact cutoff would be, but the goal should be so that the top 5-10% of any card would qualify. I'm sure PSA could figure something out. 53/47 or so should work for most vintage issues.

But see, there are people for whom that is not a centered card. I see a huge slippery slope problem here and like anything it's going to descend into arbitrariness.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But see, there are people for whom that is not a centered card. I see a huge slippery slope problem here and like anything it's going to descend into arbitrariness.

You have to draw the line somewhere. For any issue it's rare everyone will be pleased with where its drawn. But the point is I think this qualifier would be good for the hobby. I can see many of you disagree. But I think a lot of the guys who collect and pay a premium for centered cards will be in favor of this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You have to draw the line somewhere. For any issue it's rare everyone will be pleased with where its drawn. But the point is I think this qualifier would be good for the hobby. I can see many of you disagree. But I think a lot of the guys who collect and pay a premium for centered cards will be in favor of this.

Explain this to me. As you say, plenty of guys are paying major premiums for centered cards. So why are you worried that when you go to sell your centered cards, guys won't pay a major premium unless PSA blesses the cards with a qualifier?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You have to draw the line somewhere. For any issue it's rare everyone will be pleased with where its drawn. But the point is I think this qualifier would be good for the hobby. I can see many of you disagree. But I think a lot of the guys who collect and pay a premium for centered cards will be in favor of this.

i dont think people need someone else to tell them how the centering is..

what i have said before is that PSA should keep pictures of all cards graded at one of their elite levels maybe $1000 or more and give a best in grade to a card...yeah future cards may now get best in grade so there would be two of them..but thats still a small size...as best in grades wouldnt be given often

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The qualifier could also bring in the same from the registry guys if bonus points are awarded.

A strong point.

[the 'stache]

Piccadilly Circus

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So the way to call attention to the huge prices centered cards command is to put a sticker on them and then charge a huge price? Something about that doesn't sit right.

Yeah, circular arguments never sit right.

The stickers don’t command the higher price. Consumers are already paying the high price for premium centering. Perhaps there should be recognition of the factors driving huge swings in price for the same grade. I’m not defending the stickers, as I don’t care for them, but I believe there’s merit in the recognition of eye appeal.

And yes, I know Beckett has/had centering grades. But how many vintage collectors care about BVG?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Yeah, circular arguments never sit right.

The stickers don’t command the higher price. Consumers are already paying the high price for premium centering. Perhaps there should be recognition of the factors driving huge swings in price for the same grade. I’m not defending the stickers, as I don’t care for them, but I believe there’s merit in the recognition of eye appeal.

And yes, I know Beckett has/had centering grades. But how many vintage collectors care about BVG?

But it IS recognized, that's the piece I am missing. If it's already happening, and to a point I will also pay more for better centering though I am less fanatical than some, why do we need to change anything?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

And yes, I know Beckett has/had centering grades. But how many vintage collectors care about BVG?

If it was that important, wouldn't people be crossing over their cards to BVG to take advantage of that 9.5 or 10 centering subgrade? Well, guess not, because BVG removed subgrades 5 years ago and has not brought them back.
Nobody is arguing that people aren't paying more for highly centered cards. You're arguing a straw man against yourself. Anyone who's been collecting graded vintage for more than 6 months knows that highly centered examples sell for more. You don't need to convince anybody.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If it was that important, wouldn't people be crossing over their cards to BVG to take advantage of that 9.5 or 10 centering subgrade? Well, guess not, because BVG removed subgrades 5 years ago and has not brought them back.
Nobody is arguing that people aren't paying more for highly centered cards. You're arguing a straw man against yourself. Anyone who's been collecting graded vintage for more than 6 months knows that highly centered examples sell for more. You don't need to convince anybody.

They may need to convince themselves if they are requiring external validation? I don't mean that pejoratively, I just don't understand the point really.