Slightly O/T: Did Cy Young "Only" Win 510 Games?

[z28jd]

Perhaps more proof is needed?

The Pittsburgh Press from September 19, 1890

Or the standings two days after they played their final game. Current records show 23-113 for reference

[Fred]

John, they could take away 11 wins and he'd still have 500! Something tells me that is one of those unbreakable records...

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Fred

John, they could take away 11 wins and he'd still have 500! Something tells me that is one of those unbreakable records...

It wouldn't be a big deal (to me at least) if 511 wasn't such an iconic number. You mention 511 to any serious baseball fan and they should know it's Cy Young's win total.

Baseball lives for iconic numbers. I still find it completely ridiculous that every year on the anniversary of Pete Rose breaking Ty Cobb's hit record that absolutely nothing is mentioned, despite it being known for over 30 years that Cobb actually finished with 4,189 hits, not 4,191. Hit 4,192 was the moment he celebrated it and anyone who saw it, remembers it, but it needs to be called what it is. You just don't gloss over the actual historic moment because someone added wrong years ago.

I've found other mistakes and not shared them here, but this one is a pretty big deal and has some major proof that the game didn't count. The local paper didn't even print a boxscore, which could be a fourth example if I knew how to show something that wasn't there.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Maybe I missed it, but what makes you think the win was counted in his regular season totals?

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Maybe I missed it, but what makes you think the win was counted in his regular season totals?

It's listed as an official game now and he threw a complete game in the win.

All of the stuff above shows that it wasn't an official game and shouldn't be included in the stats for the 18 players in the game.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by z28jd

It's listed as an official game now and he threw a complete game in the win.

All of the stuff above shows that it wasn't an official game and shouldn't be included in the stats for the 18 players in the game.

One thing to note, however, is that you are looking at only one side of the story. You are hearing from the Allegheny's club president and their dutifully obliging local newspaper. Do you have any record of what the Cleveland paper had to say about the same game? Not that I have any idea what the difference would be between 112 losses and 113. But the reasoning may have nothing to do with the yearly loss total. Maybe the club president had some kind of bet and was trying to welch out of it by claiming the game was just an exhibition? No idea. But I need to see more before I am convinced.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

One thing to note, however, is that you are looking at only one side of the story. You are hearing from the Allegheny's club president and their dutifully obliging local newspaper. Do you have any record of what the Cleveland paper had to say about the same game? Not that I have any idea what the difference would be between 112 losses and 113. But the reasoning may have nothing to do with the yearly loss total. Maybe the club president had some kind of bet and was trying to welch out of it by claiming the game was just an exhibition? No idea. But I need to see more before I am convinced.

The local papers weren't kind to the team at this time, so I highly doubt they combined with him to call a random road game an exhibition in the middle of a 112 loss season. The game recap above had to be sent to the local paper from whoever covered the game in Wheeling. They didn't do road trips back in 1890 to cover games.

There's also the matter of the team being 21-104 at the time. If he wanted to avoid losses, they wouldn't have cut some of the best players near the end of the season to save money.

The Sporting Life had this note in with all of their other random notes from the time, which were compiled by them. This was listed two issues before the quote from the team president

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by z28jd

It wouldn't be a big deal (to me at least) if 511 wasn't such an iconic number. You mention 511 to any serious baseball fan and they should know it's Cy Young's win total.

Baseball lives for iconic numbers. I still find it completely ridiculous that every year on the anniversary of Pete Rose breaking Ty Cobb's hit record that absolutely nothing is mentioned, despite it being known for over 30 years that Cobb actually finished with 4,189 hits, not 4,191. Hit 4,192 was the moment he celebrated it and anyone who saw it, remembers it, but it needs to be called what it is. You just don't gloss over the actual historic moment because someone added wrong years ago.

I've found other mistakes and not shared them here, but this one is a pretty big deal and has some major proof that the game didn't count. The local paper didn't even print a boxscore, which could be a fourth example if I knew how to show something that wasn't there.

Iconic numbers change all the time. When I was a kid, Ty Cobb had a career .367 average, Hack Wilson got 190 RBI, Charles Radbourn got 60 wins, Hugh Duffy hit .438, Dutch Leonard had a 1.01 ERA, Walter Johnson had 414 wins, and so on.

We need to recognize the correct numbers.

[Butch7999]

Chris, agreed, correct, and if some evidence is unearthed that should change the currently official count,
it shouldn't just be bandied about by a few fans and left there.
z28jd, have you approached MLB, RetroSheet, and/or the HOF with your research?