Why aren't there more football card collectors?

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Robert I don't think you could have explained any better for many of us! Go Hogs

[jefferyepayne]

Man, I go away on travel for a few days and a big time football thread starts up on Net54. Awesome stuff, guys!

All of what has been said is great and there's truth in a lot of these ideas.

I will add two more ideas to the mix.

First, organized professional football is 50 years younger than organized professional baseball. I think to adequately compare football and baseball you need to compare the football hobby today with the baseball hobby of 1968 (50 years ago). Even though football has risen to the top of the popularity heap, we are 50 years behind in tradition, hobby artifacts, card sets, etc. I would argue this has something to do with the smaller number of football collectors too.

Second, because football items are so much cheaper than baseball items are and there are far less of them, football card / memorabilia collectors are hoarders. There just isn't a huge buy/sell market driving buzz and visibility of cards people haven't seen before. A very active hobby takes demand AND supply and for at least the pre-war items/sets, supply is very limited to the point where most collectors haven't even heard of, much less seen, many sets. POP on some sets are just crazy low.

jeff

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Great points Jeff. The point Robert makes about finding Hall of Famers for a fraction of a middling baseball Hall of Famer pricing makes this very attractive.

I have often wondered about printing numbers from the 1950's and 60's for baseball and football. I would venture a guess that there are many more 1952 Topps Mantles out there than there are 1952 Bowman larges of any specific player especially SP's. Once again demand creates the skewing of prices.

Please don't point this out to PSA driven investors

[Anish]

I would collect football more if there were more Pre-War issues. Everything Post-War is easy to find but there are only a couple Pre-War sets and they are very expensive.

Also, other than Nagurski and Grange many of the big Pre-War names (Thorpe, Hutson, etc) don’t have mainstream cards that were made during their careers.

[Exhibitman]

My entirely unscientific take:

I collected FB as a kid, stopping around 1975. That is the only reason I collect it now, and all I collect are the cards from 1979 and earlier, with rare exceptions.

I know quite a few people who are alienated from the modern NFL for a variety of reasons: thug players; concussion denial; the injuries the sport inflicts on its players; poor treatment of its cheerleaders as workers...the list just goes on.

I find the sport boring and slow, especially when televised. The actual play takes up only a small fraction of the time of a telecast. I cannot sit through it.

The 1960s-1970s had such fun players. We don't see that any more what with all the personal branding considerations. Now, that is endemic to all sports, but it is such a contrast from the days of these guys:

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

My entirely unscientific take:

I collected FB as a kid, stopping around 1975. That is the only reason I collect it now, and all I collect are the cards from 1979 and earlier, with rare exceptions.

I know quite a few people who are alienated from the modern NFL for a variety of reasons: thug players; concussion denial; the injuries the sport inflicts on its players; poor treatment of its cheerleaders as workers...the list just goes on.

I find the sport boring and slow, especially when televised. The actual play takes up only a small fraction of the time of a telecast. I cannot sit through it.

The 1960s-1970s had such fun players. We don't see that any more what with all the personal branding considerations. Now, that is endemic to all sports, but it is such a contrast from the days of these guys:

Good points and cards!! To your point about today's NFL: I personally can separate my feelings about collecting football cards of better times (like you mentioned in the 60s) from my feelings about today's corporate NFL. However, I know that many don't want to separate those feelings and have walked away from pro football. I myself don't care nearly as much about it as I did even five years ago. College football is still somewhat enjoyable for me, but it isn't without its issues, too. In the end, all the sports seem more flawed as we age I guess. I just try and focus on enjoying the cards I can afford to collect and not dwell on all the issues and problems. The cards are fun stuff!

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[TanksAndSpartans]

Lots of great points - my favorite might be the one about baseball cards being a summer thing - I can totally relate to that as a kid - after dinner summer nights trading baseball cards on the curb while it was still light out - when football cards came out, it was time to go back to school.

One thing I don’t think was mentioned specifically - in my opinion in lots of areas of the country people are more passionate about college football than professional because they may not have a pro team in their area. Also, for anyone who went to a school where Saturday football was part of the experience, they may find a bond with that team that is hard to duplicate with a pro team. While the NCAA wasn’t around to stop the Mayo set or keep Bednarik, Walker, etc. out of the early Leaf sets, I don’t think a lot of college football card sets exist.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Anish

I would collect football more if there were more Pre-War issues. Everything Post-War is easy to find but there are only a couple Pre-War sets and they are very expensive.

Also, other than Nagurski and Grange many of the big Pre-War names (Thorpe, Hutson, etc) don’t have mainstream cards that were made during their careers.

Great point about pre-war sets although there is lots more available if you expand your definition of a "card" to include RPPCs, premiums, inserts, cabinets, etc.

I can't agree that everything Post-War is easy to find. Mainstream sets? Mostly yes, but some of the regional and oddball sets are next to impossible to complete and provide a great challenge for the hardcore collector. Some of these include: 1950 Bread for Health, 1946 Sears Browns, 1961 National City Bank Browns, 1961 Golden Tulip, 1960 7-Eleven, 1968 Topps Test Team, 1969 Eskimo Pie, 1959 Bazooka, etc. Many of these sets have awesome pre-rookie cards of HOFers in them that makes looking for cards from these sets very enjoyable.

Completely agree about no mainstream (or even oddball in some cases!) cards being available pre-war. I use this as an opportunity to find and go after things related to cards that are fun to collect too. Things like advertisements, matchbooks, vintage photos, RPPCs (and other card-like things mentioned above). Once you get into those a little bit they can be as fun and as addictive as cards are.

jeff

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Jeff, I was wondering where you were!! Good points. I hadn't really thought about your point of big time football being about 50 years behind baseball in terms of history. That may play a role in the lower prices and relative affordability of football cards. I guess that would be like buying baseball cards "back in the day" before the boom. That is encouraging as a football card collector...just don't tell anyone.

My only football collecting experience is '50s and '60s, but I know you and others on this board know prewar football. To your point about lack of availability, I believe it. I practically never see such items for sale...and I do look.

Someone else mentioned the double whammy of not many big prewar names and not many cards for those greats of yesteryear. To date, that has no impact on me personally as I really like the '50s issues, and I really like the AFL cards and sets from the '60s, but I can see how that might dissuade would-be prewar football collectors. Of course, when you factor in college football along with early professional football, there are many great and colorful players...more than most people know about. It just takes a little curiousity and effort to "discover" them. Baseball has done a much better job of putting legends of the game (even relatively minor ones) front and center.

Jeff, I think I read one of your recent posts somewhere where you succinctly pointed out that football sets, for the most part, are smaller and less expensive. What's not to like? I grew up liking football, too, and there are some wonderful football cards/sets out there.

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Man, I go away on travel for a few days and a big time football thread starts up on Net54. Awesome stuff, guys!

All of what has been said is great and there's truth in a lot of these ideas.

I will add two more idea to the mix.

First, organized professional football is 50 years younger than organized professional baseball. I think to adequately compare football and baseball you need to compare the football hobby today with the baseball hobby of 1968 (50 years ago). Even though football has risen to the top of the popularity heap, we are 50 years behind in tradition, hobby artifacts, card sets, etc. I would argue this has something to do with the smaller number of football collectors too.

Second, because football items are so much cheaper than baseball items are and there are far less of them, football card / memorabilia collectors are hoarders. There just isn't a huge buy/sell market driving buzz and visibility of cards people haven't seen before. A very active hobby takes demand AND supply and for at least the pre-war items/sets, supply is very limited to the point where most collectors haven't even heard of, much less seen, many sets. POP on some sets are just crazy low.

jeff

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[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

My only football collecting experience is '50s and '60s, but I know you and others on this board know prewar football. To your point about lack of availability, I believe it. I practically never see such items for sale...and I do look.

Good point, Robert. Lots of the very rare stuff changes hands behind the scenes from collector to collector without seeing the light of the auction day. Many times rare cards and things that do come up for auction have already been offered directly to a few hardcore collectors who have passed on them at the price offered.

There is a reason why many pre-war cards have no priced in VCP yet exist and change hands.

jeff

[Exhibitman]

Those of us who grew up in the heyday of MNF are also a bit spoiled. Like boxing fans who grew up on Ali-Frazier-Foreman-Norton. It doesn’t get any better and whatever is next is a letdown.

[skil55voy]

All the points made so far are great. I think that part of the problem has to do with the media. The football "pundits" don't really talk about past players like the baseball reporters do. Baseball guys compare today's players to all of the past greats. Football guy compare today's players to each other. Without making this rather long I will site one example. Tom Brady is talked about for all his championships and that he sits in a great "system". His Super Bowl record is 5-3. Otto Graham was a "system" qb. In the 40's he won 5 championships with the upstart AAFC. When it folded the Browns and Rams were let into the NFL. Both teams made the championship game in 1950 which the Browns and Graham won. From 1946 through 1955, the Browns went to every championship with a record of 7-2. Of course the NFL does not recognize the AAFC statistics. And then there is Bart Starr..... Neither are talked about to the extent of Ted Williams, Koufax and other baseball players. And as we all know in the end, the "team" wins championships.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Thanks, Mike. Football around here would be way more fun if Morris can help us win more than 5! WPS!!

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Robert I don't think you could have explained any better for many of us! Go Hogs

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[TanksAndSpartans]

Here's one I don't think has been mentioned - movies, video games, and books (The theory is that kids are impressionable and something like this could capture one’s imagination for a lifetime)

Off the top of my head I'll just list ones that could spark an interest in the historical aspect of the sport (theory being that most collectors start with current items i.e. "packs of this year's cards" and eventually get into older items)

Movies
Field of Dreams
The Natural

Games
Micro League Baseball (You could have Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Christy Mathewson, etc. on your team and they were good!)

Books
Casey at the Bat
Ted Williams Art of Hitting (not sure on exact title)

For Football, the only historical based movies I recall focus on college football - Rudy and one about Tennessee's Richmond Flowers (There is a Nagurski reference in a movie, but it wasn't a football movie). There was a video game, but it didn't come out until 2005. It's possible to stumble on books - but in my opinion, you don’t see as many - The Dr. Z chapter I read on Marion Motley as a kid was a huge influence on me, but I’m pretty sure I’m in the minority.

Probably lots I'm forgetting on both sides, but I think baseball wins on this. I can think of a kid on my street who said his favorite player was Babe Ruth - I'm not saying this was common, but I can't imagine it happening in football.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I think Madden football dwarfs all other sports games but I don't know if they offer any retro or historic options?

[TanksAndSpartans]

Good call on Madden, but I think it took until 2013 or thereabouts to get legends, so maybe we'll get some new pre-war collectors, but will take some time