The illusion of an objective standard psa, sgc, bvg

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It's all opinion basied. When it's rendering a opinion there is no liabilty on their behalf.

And we all know what they say about opinions.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

And we all know what they say about opinions.

...that opinions are fine as long as they are mine?

Brian

[PowderedH2O]

My father collected coins for over 60 years. When I showed him a number of my PSA graded cards, I asked him why almost all of his coins were ungraded. He told me a story of how Q David Bowers, a premier authority on coin collecting submitted a particular coin and the grade was significantly lower than Bowers expected. He told me "if Bowers with a loupe says a coin is a particular grade, should I trust him, or some $10 per hour guy working at the coin place?"... And, he had a point. If I took the 25 most knowledgeable collectors on this board, I would trust their opinions over ANY grading company.

[robkas68]

My argument certainly is not that psa was correct in each instance. I presume that if I sent sgc 15 psa cards, some may come up short. And if you sent a card to psa 3 times you may get 3 different grades. Rather, it is the false sense of security associated with the grading process. Some of those trimmed cards are only a bad factory cut and some of the psa, sgc or bvg "9"s are altered as hell. I am amusing myself with the irony that after 40 years of collecting, I may be submitting my stuff to a 23 year old to tell me if it is "legit" and then taking his word as gospel.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by robkas68

My argument certainly is not that psa was correct in each instance. I presume that if I sent sgc 15 psa cards, some may come up short. And if you sent a card to psa 3 times you may get 3 different grades. Rather, it is the false sense of security associated with the grading process. Some of those trimmed cards are only a bad factory cut and some of the psa, sgc or bvg "9"s are altered as hell. I am amusing myself with the irony that after 40 years of collecting, I may be submitting my stuff to a 23 year old to tell me if it is "legit" and then taking his word as gospel.

I will agree will this entire statement.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by robkas68

My argument certainly is not that psa was correct in each instance. I presume that if I sent sgc 15 psa cards, some may come up short. And if you sent a card to psa 3 times you may get 3 different grades. Rather, it is the false sense of security associated with the grading process. Some of those trimmed cards are only a bad factory cut and some of the psa, sgc or bvg "9"s are altered as hell. I am amusing myself with the irony that after 40 years of collecting, I may be submitting my stuff to a 23 year old to tell me if it is "legit" and then taking his word as gospel.

I agree!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[glynparson]

I have not seen a 23 year old grader at PSA, all the ones i know are in their late 40's to early 50's. Because customer service may have some younger guys in it doesn't mean the graders are young. SGC has no young graders either not sure where this information comes from. Second PSA BVG and SGC are three different companies the fact that they would not all grade the card the exact same grade is completely irrelevant. Is grading an exact science NO WAY but it is far less random than many of the criticisms want to pretend. Third point I was 23 in 1995 and more than qualified to be a grader so if there is someone grading at PSA that is 23 I wouldn't just automatically dismiss them as unqualified. Some of the most respected people as far as knowledge on this board have missed wrinkles and or modifications to cards. Having a great knowledge of a set may help greatly in knowing rarities and would obviously help in identifying counterfeits but it is not necessarily much help in detecting alterations or technical grade which are some of the key components and most important areas of grading.

[mark evans]

I think the issue of expertise is less significant than the inherent subjectivity in grading. That said, I think TPG is a positive resource, especially with regard to issues of authenticity and alterations. What escapes me, given the subjectivity in grading, is the large disparity in values especially at the high end (8 v. 8.5 v. 9 for example).

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I have not seen a 23 year old grader at PSA, all the ones i know are in their late 40's to early 50's. Because customer service may have some younger guys in it doesn't mean the graders are young. SGC has no young graders either not sure where this information comes from. Second PSA BVG and SGC are three different companies the fact that they would not all grade the card the exact same grade is completely irrelevant. Is grading an exact science NO WAY but it is far less random than many of the criticisms want to pretend. Third point I was 23 in 1995 and more than qualified to be a grader so if there is someone grading at PSA that is 23 I wouldn't just automatically dismiss them as unqualified. Some of the most respected people as far as knowledge on this board have missed wrinkles and or modifications to cards. Having a great knowledge of a set may help greatly in knowing rarities and would obviously help in identifying counterfeits but it is not necessarily much help in detecting alterations or technical grade which are some of the key components and most important areas of grading.

"I am amusing myself with the irony that after 40 years of collecting, I may be submitting my stuff to a 23 year old to tell me if it is "legit" and then taking his word as gospel."

I don't think Roberts statement says that he knows a 23 year old is grading his cards. He's stating it's subjective and maybe somewhat reliable at best. Until the subjectivity and human element is removed, it's just a tool and nothing more. There is very little science involved, especially with the time committed by the grader.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I have not seen a 23 year old grader at PSA, all the ones i know are in their late 40's to early 50's. Because customer service may have some younger guys in it doesn't mean the graders are young. SGC has no young graders either not sure where this information comes from. Second PSA BVG and SGC are three different companies the fact that they would not all grade the card the exact same grade is completely irrelevant. Is grading an exact science NO WAY but it is far less random than many of the criticisms want to pretend. Third point I was 23 in 1995 and more than qualified to be a grader so if there is someone grading at PSA that is 23 I wouldn't just automatically dismiss them as unqualified. Some of the most respected people as far as knowledge on this board have missed wrinkles and or modifications to cards. Having a great knowledge of a set may help greatly in knowing rarities and would obviously help in identifying counterfeits but it is not necessarily much help in detecting alterations or technical grade which are some of the key components and most important areas of grading.

Glyn- do you know what tools the TPG's use to detect altered cards? I know paper restorers can be extremely skilled, and are always trying to get doctored cards slabbed with numerical grades. And how successful do you think the graders are in catching and rejecting them?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I have not seen a 23 year old grader at PSA, all the ones i know are in their late 40's to early 50's. Because customer service may have some younger guys in it doesn't mean the graders are young. SGC has no young graders either not sure where this information comes from. Second PSA BVG and SGC are three different companies the fact that they would not all grade the card the exact same grade is completely irrelevant. Is grading an exact science NO WAY but it is far less random than many of the criticisms want to pretend. Third point I was 23 in 1995 and more than qualified to be a grader so if there is someone grading at PSA that is 23 I wouldn't just automatically dismiss them as unqualified. Some of the most respected people as far as knowledge on this board have missed wrinkles and or modifications to cards. Having a great knowledge of a set may help greatly in knowing rarities and would obviously help in identifying counterfeits but it is not necessarily much help in detecting alterations or technical grade which are some of the key components and most important areas of grading.

BIG, BIG +1. TPG's have eliminated a significant portion of dealers specializing in altered cards. I can think of one in my area who had virtually nothing but cards that were put through a paper press, then cut back to size, with razor sharp edges and one who advertised almost weekly in Sports Collector's Digest back in the early '90's. The cards appeared to the naked eye as NrMt-Mt, but would virtually always come back from PSA as trimmed. Upon inquiry to PSA, I learned to look at the edges of raw cards with a 16X loupe before buying (original cards should have rough edges; pressed and trimmed will have quite clean, sharp edges) The latter dealer seems to have vanished entirely from the scene and the other, while still apparently in business (and will go unnamed) appears to have cleaned up his act.

Best wishes,

Larry

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

...that opinions are fine as long as they are mine?

Brian

No, that you are entitled to your opinion...but you are also entitled to my opinion.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

No, that you are entitled to your opinion...but you are also entitled to my opinion.

I like your opinions in your book on Exhibits, Adam. Nice work!

Highest regards,

Larry