Incredible eBay find that never materialized (newly discovered info on 6/26!!!)

[Marchillo]

I feel for the OP 100%. My great deals have been few and far between and thinking of not receiving one is devastating.

I think everyone agrees - the original seller with the false story is scum. I would never do business with them (if i actually remember them when coming across an item).

As for Joe - Not sure there is a right or wrong answer here but I think its dangerous to accuse someone as is being done here. I don't think Joe owes it to anyone to tell how he acquired the card, yet he told the OP that it was acquired by trade. I agree with Joe not giving up the name of the person he traded with. I honestly don't think he owes anyone anything at this point assuming this is the truth and the trade he mentions wasn't by him initiating a call on an item that already sold.

If Joe comes on here to defend himself and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade" - will that satisfy everyone?

What if Joe comes on here and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade, but will not reveal who I traded with" - will that satisfy everyone?

What if Joe comes on here and says "Like I told the OP, I acquired this card in a trade, I will not reveal who i traded with but I can tell you its not from the seller of the original listing" - will that satisfy everyone?

I have no relationship with Joe and for all I know Joe could have done some shenanigans in this whole ordeal. But assuming he didn't I still don't think he owes it to anyone to prove his innocence.

Again I feel for the OP - I don't think he's overreacting and if I were in his shoes i might say the same things even though I think they are dangerous things to say. Maybe some more information will come to light. It is probably in Joe's best interest to come on here but if he offers the same response he offered to the OP I am not sure where it will get him.

[joed25]

This is Andrew Dwek. Joe Dwek is my brother and partner. Joe and I buy, sell and trade sports memorabilia and autographs.The accusation that we stole this card from Dmitry by offering the ebay seller more is simply false. We traded for the card having no knowledge of any sales or transactions on it. A client was interested in a high end item of our’s and asked if we would consider trading it to him for multiple items. After going back and forth on potential trade pieces over a few days we agreed on a package of multiple items coming our way in exchange for the one high end item in our store. One of the items we received was this card.

We rarely deal in vintage cards unless they're autographed. In all of our years of doing this, we have never once bought a vintage graded card unless it was included in a package that consisted mainly of autographs and memorabilia. We don't follow card auctions and sales and never have bid on card auctions or listings of any kind. We certainly would never make an offer to a seller after an ebay sale had completed. We wouldn't do so even if the item was right is in our wheelhouse and we’d be able to make a quick profit on it. We certainly wouldn't do it on a vintage card for which we have no real feel for and have no clients/buyers for. While we've been the victim of such practices countless times we would never engage in such business practices. We love what we do, feel blessed to be able to dedicate so much time to the hobby and believe there's enough good and legitimate business out there.

To prove I'm saying the truth I'm willing to show our conversations and communications with this trade client to a net54 board member. I would do so in person, either now in New Jersey or at the national. I will show the proof of the trade to a neutral person, not someone who was affected by the cancelled ebay sale or feels they incurred a loss. The client’s identity will remain anonymous.

After we listed the card for sale in our ebay store, Dmitry messaged us about the cancelled ebay sale. We immediately offered to talk to him on the phone to explain what had happened. Attached are the ebay messages:

[joed25]

I see the photos are not clear so here is the ebay conversation transcribed:

OP: Did you purchase this from maxcollector69?

Me: No.

OP: Are you selling it as a consignment for someone else then? I'm asking because I purchased
and paid for this card from eBay user maxcollector69 about a month ago. The order was then
cancelled and refunded before it shipped. Whoever bought it stole it from me by offering the
seller more, and I need to know who did that to me. If not you, then I need to know who. If you
can't provide that info then I'll assume it was you.

Me: No I am not.

OP: Then it was you who stole this card from me. Thanks for clearing that up.
I will be making sure your eBay business suffers as much as possible.
It will be the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life by the time I'm finished with you.
maxcollector69 is already feeling the effects of the part that he played in this.
Expect to also hear from MANY others who have already heard my story, and know exactly
what you did.

Me: This is the fourth email I got from someone saying he bought this card. I know almost
nothing about cards. I am an autograph dealer. I only get cards in trades. Someone traded
me this card for an expensive autograph. To think that I would follow an eBay sale of this
card and message the seller after to sell it to me is a little crazy as I don’t deal in cards
and I wouldn’t know what a dietshe postcard is if it hit me in the head. Hope this clears
things up.

OP: Again, unless I get specific details on who you got this card from, I will assume it was you who
stole it from me.
Others are messaging you on MY behalf.
Check eBay sales within the last 90 days and you'll see this card sold for $1200 as a BUY IT
NOW. I was the buyer.
The seller cancelled on me after I paid. Someone offered maxcollector69 more to cause the
cancellation.
Unless you tell me who you got this card from, I'll have to assume it was YOU!
And selling it for $6K tells me you know A LOT about this card.
DO NOT attempt to lie to me. IT WILL NOT WORK!

Me: I told you exactly what happened with this card. Obviously I can research a cards value.
But I am not a Card dealer and it is ludicrous to think that I would follow an eBay Auction
and message him after on an obscure card that I don’t deal in. I would never do such a
thing. Also I don’t appreciate being threatened.

OP: I'm asking you one last time, who did you get this card from? I won't ask again...

And I don't appreciate being lied to and stolen from. Even if it wasn't you, if you don't tell me
who you got this card from, then you're covering for the perp, which makes you just as
responsible! And I still think it was you!

Me: I am available to speak after 11 am est. Feel free to
call.

OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.
I'm just asking for proof that you didn't get the card from maxcollector69. That should be easy
enough to provide.
Right now all evidence points to you.

Me: After work is fine. I have 4 little kids as well. Thanks

OP: Who should I ask for when calling?
I'm still going to need real proof.
Telling me something like you made a trade with a stranger at a show won't cut it for me.

Me: Joe.
It was not at a show. It was from someone who buys from me

OP: That won't help either of us, unfortunately, and eliminates the need for a phone call. I would hope
that you don't engage in large transactions like that without first getting some personal info from your
trading partner, but it doesn't seem like you did that. It's a situation like this that you could have
avoided. That is, if any of what you're saying is true. As far as I can see, you can't prove anything,
but I can prove you're in possession of the Cobb. That's all I'll need.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'll need a full name, email address, and if you have it,
eBay user ID and home address of your trading partner.

Me: Of course I have the persons name but I’m not going to give the name of one of my
clients. Call me. You will see I’m honest and I would never do such a horrible thing. I
definitely feel your pain. All the best, Joe

OP: Hi Joe, I really want to believe you, but this isn't looking good for you without any proof or
willingness to cooperate.
I'm sure you're already getting messages from people who will vow to never do business with
you again - you'll be getting much more of this over the coming days, weeks and months. I
have a lot of influence on the card collecting community, and have no issues reaching out to
the memorabilia side as well.
I will need that name and email address to let you off the hook.
If you have any sympathy at all about this situation, you'll do the right thing and make sure that
the right person is exposed for what they did.

Me: Let’s talk when you are
free.

OP: I appreciate your willingness to reach out and speak to me, but nothing short of your client's
information will help either of us.
Covering for your client makes you just as guilty, unfortunately.

Me: With all due respect I think if you were in my shoes you would not want to give a clients
information. I really think it will be a benefit to talk. Please call. Thanks. Joe

OP: I would happily provide their information if I was given proof that they were potentially
engaging in such devious behavior. I'd also never do business with them again, but it's
obvious that you value their business more than your own ethics.
It's possible there was another exchange before it reached your client, but that will need to be
researched.
As it stands, the ball is in your court, and you're still covering for your client. That's all I need to
know.

Me: Again I am willing to talk. I don’t want to fight with you. I would never do anything like
some people are suggesting. I cannot give a clients name. If you change your mind and
are willing to talk I am always available. I wish you the best. Joe

OP: You've taken your stance and I've taken mine. I just hope you can accept the consequences of
your actions.

[joed25]

Some more photos.

[joed25]

Here are some more photos

[joed25]

Patrick,
I was the one who replied to you "must be my lucky day".
I was fed up with all the messages on this card and wrote back quickly to you out of frustration. Please accept my apologies. - Andrew

[Marchillo]

To me, I don't know how much more Joe and Andrew have to say to defend themselves. This is more than I would have expected. I know there will be some sort of criticism. If I were Joe and Andrew then I would share the information they offered with Leon. No one better in my opinion.

As for the OP - I think these messages come off really aggressive and harsh. Not the approach I would have taken. Also not sure why a phone call wasn't done after the repeated offer. I do not blame Joe and Andrew for not giving away that information. For all we know the trade partner could have been the second person to touch the card after the listing was pulled and could have been innocent in all of this too. Then Joe and Andrew lose a major contributor to their business and this person could go around blasting them as well hurting other frequent clients. Just a no win situation....

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I hate to take sides when I'm not involved and this is more a general comment.

You cannot make yourself whole by damaging someone else.

[mechanicalman]

I have been in the OPs shoes before. The almost exact situation happened to me. IT SUCKS. I genuinely feel bad for the OP - as bad as you can possibly feel about a guy who didn't get a Dietsche Cobb for a fraction than market value.

But at this point, you've got to give this up and move on. You will not be getting that card for $1200. You have no recourse. You were screwed by the seller, and he no longer owns it.

It seems like your only goal at this point is to besmirch others' reputations based on little to no evidence. You've actually done it in two threads (one of which you've walked back.) Will that make you feel better? Maybe. But how is wielding your hobby influence to hurt someone's business (your words) a good use of time and energy? You are too busy to take a phone call, but you find the time to run a smear campaign based on assumptions?

Dude, move on. I'm sorry this happened to you, but your reaction at this point is not a good look.

And also, how have we gotten this far without knowing your FULL NAME?

[Scott L.]

Originally Posted by joed25

I see the photos are not clear so here is the ebay conversation transcribed:

OP: Did you purchase this from maxcollector69?

Me: No.

OP: Are you selling it as a consignment for someone else then? I'm asking because I purchased
and paid for this card from eBay user maxcollector69 about a month ago. The order was then
cancelled and refunded before it shipped. Whoever bought it stole it from me by offering the
seller more, and I need to know who did that to me. If not you, then I need to know who. If you
can't provide that info then I'll assume it was you.

Me: No I am not.

OP: Then it was you who stole this card from me. Thanks for clearing that up.
I will be making sure your eBay business suffers as much as possible.
It will be the biggest mistake you've ever made in your life by the time I'm finished with you.
maxcollector69 is already feeling the effects of the part that he played in this.
Expect to also hear from MANY others who have already heard my story, and know exactly
what you did.

Me: This is the fourth email I got from someone saying he bought this card. I know almost
nothing about cards. I am an autograph dealer. I only get cards in trades. Someone traded
me this card for an expensive autograph. To think that I would follow an eBay sale of this
card and message the seller after to sell it to me is a little crazy as I don’t deal in cards
and I wouldn’t know what a dietshe postcard is if it hit me in the head. Hope this clears
things up.

OP: Again, unless I get specific details on who you got this card from, I will assume it was you who
stole it from me.
Others are messaging you on MY behalf.
Check eBay sales within the last 90 days and you'll see this card sold for $1200 as a BUY IT
NOW. I was the buyer.
The seller cancelled on me after I paid. Someone offered maxcollector69 more to cause the
cancellation.
Unless you tell me who you got this card from, I'll have to assume it was YOU!
And selling it for $6K tells me you know A LOT about this card.
DO NOT attempt to lie to me. IT WILL NOT WORK!

Me: I told you exactly what happened with this card. Obviously I can research a cards value.
But I am not a Card dealer and it is ludicrous to think that I would follow an eBay Auction
and message him after on an obscure card that I don’t deal in. I would never do such a
thing. Also I don’t appreciate being threatened.

OP: I'm asking you one last time, who did you get this card from? I won't ask again...

And I don't appreciate being lied to and stolen from. Even if it wasn't you, if you don't tell me
who you got this card from, then you're covering for the perp, which makes you just as
responsible! And I still think it was you!

Me: I am available to speak after 11 am est. Feel free to
call.

OP: I work during the day and come home to 3 young children, so I don't have the time to call
anyone.
I'm just asking for proof that you didn't get the card from maxcollector69. That should be easy
enough to provide.
Right now all evidence points to you.

Me: After work is fine. I have 4 little kids as well. Thanks

OP: Who should I ask for when calling?
I'm still going to need real proof.
Telling me something like you made a trade with a stranger at a show won't cut it for me.

Me: Joe.
It was not at a show. It was from someone who buys from me

OP: That won't help either of us, unfortunately, and eliminates the need for a phone call. I would hope
that you don't engage in large transactions like that without first getting some personal info from your
trading partner, but it doesn't seem like you did that. It's a situation like this that you could have
avoided. That is, if any of what you're saying is true. As far as I can see, you can't prove anything,
but I can prove you're in possession of the Cobb. That's all I'll need.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I'll need a full name, email address, and if you have it,
eBay user ID and home address of your trading partner.

Me: Of course I have the persons name but I’m not going to give the name of one of my
clients. Call me. You will see I’m honest and I would never do such a horrible thing. I
definitely feel your pain. All the best, Joe

OP: Hi Joe, I really want to believe you, but this isn't looking good for you without any proof or
willingness to cooperate.
I'm sure you're already getting messages from people who will vow to never do business with
you again - you'll be getting much more of this over the coming days, weeks and months. I
have a lot of influence on the card collecting community, and have no issues reaching out to
the memorabilia side as well.
I will need that name and email address to let you off the hook.
If you have any sympathy at all about this situation, you'll do the right thing and make sure that
the right person is exposed for what they did.

Me: Let’s talk when you are
free.

OP: I appreciate your willingness to reach out and speak to me, but nothing short of your client's
information will help either of us.
Covering for your client makes you just as guilty, unfortunately.

Me: With all due respect I think if you were in my shoes you would not want to give a clients
information. I really think it will be a benefit to talk. Please call. Thanks. Joe

OP: I would happily provide their information if I was given proof that they were potentially
engaging in such devious behavior. I'd also never do business with them again, but it's
obvious that you value their business more than your own ethics.
It's possible there was another exchange before it reached your client, but that will need to be
researched.
As it stands, the ball is in your court, and you're still covering for your client. That's all I need to
know.

Me: Again I am willing to talk. I don’t want to fight with you. I would never do anything like
some people are suggesting. I cannot give a clients name. If you change your mind and
are willing to talk I am always available. I wish you the best. Joe

OP: You've taken your stance and I've taken mine. I just hope you can accept the consequences of
your actions.

Joe you have the patience of a saint. I can’t imagine letting anyone speak to me like this for as long as you did. Over a baseball card. Kudos.

[asoriano]

nevermind.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Joe you have the patience of a saint. I can’t imagine letting anyone speak to me like this for as long as you did. Over a baseball card. Kudos.

I agree. My response would have been quite different as well. The OP was way out of line. In threatening to ruin another man's business and reputation you have ruined yours in my opinion. Hopefully anyone who has seen this thread will think twice before doing business with you.

[vintagetoppsguy]

The OP hasn't proved anything, but neither has Andrew/Joe (unless I missed it - I didn't read every response). If I were the OP, here's how I would handle it from here:

Dmitry, you have a confirmation email from PayPal that says you paid for the item. You also have a notification from eBay that says the item was shipped. I would take those two emails and file a police report in New Jersey saying that the card never arrived - must have been stolen. Let them know who is in possession of the card. Let the police do their own investigation. They'll determine where the card originated from real fast. If Andrew/Joe are right, you owe them an apology. If they are guilty of what you suspect them of, well then a lot of people owe you an apology. Again, that's just how I would handle it, you can do as you wish.

[Marchillo]

I don't think I'd owe the OP an apology even if Joe and Andrew are lying. Those eBay messages are insane and the explanation is perfectly logical and believable. Unless the OP had 100% certainty that what he suspects is correct, then he shouldn't talk to people that way. Even if he ends up by chance being justified that Andrew and Joe did in fact take part in wrongdoing. Like a recent poster said I would not deal with the OP after this thread even if he is right in the end.

The anger the OP expressed to Joe and Andrew should have been directed at the original seller. Except the original seller simply ignored the OP and the OP is apparently too busy to make a phone call to Joe never mind file a police report in Jersey?

But part of your post is correct - nothing has been proven or disproven. The only thing we have is the OP's story, Joe/Andrew's story, and a litany of eBay messages that make the OP look terrible.

[sterlingfox]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The OP hasn't proved anything, but neither has Andrew/Joe (unless I missed it - I didn't read every response). If I were the OP, here's how I would handle it from here:

Dmitry, you have a confirmation email from PayPal that says you paid for the item. I would take that email and file a police report in New Jersey saying that the card never arrived - must have been stolen. Let them know who is in possession of the card. Let the police do their own investigation. They'll determine where the card originated from real fast. If Andrew/Joe are right, you owe them an apology. If they are guilty of what you suspect them of, well then a lot of people owe you an apology. Again, that's just how I would handle it, you can do as you wish.

David,

Unfortunately, I also have an order cancellation and refund. It would be pretty silly of me to file a police report, especially if I were to claim that the card was stolen in transit, which I know it was not because it never shipped.

You've hit the nail on the head, though, with the fact that Andrew and Joe haven't proven yet that they didn't buy the card from maxcollector69. All we have so far is their word - and they are under no obligation to prove anything to me or anyone else if they choose not to.

If Andrew or Joe decide that they'd like to prove that they didn't buy the card from maxcollector69, then I absolutely owe them an apology.

Without proof, however, there is still some doubt. Nobody can possibly deny or refute that given they are the only other party that has been proven to be in possession of the card after maxcollector69 had it.

I'd like to apologize to everyone on the board, however, about how I went about pursuing this. I should not have made any threats or accusations without actual proof. I convinced myself that it was Joe simply because he was in possession of the card, and that was wrong of me.

[BLongley]

Andrew, Thank you for coming on here and explaining the details. This certainly helps me believe your innocence.