"1888" GOODWIN CHAMPIONS (N162) cards are actually an 1889 set

[ramram]

I have seen a large number of early images and I don’t think I have ever seen a salt print outside of the 1850’s/1860’s. They were a difficult process that gave way to the more economical albumens. Salt prints are quite rare and hard to find for a reason.

Rob M

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by ramram

I have seen a large number of early images and I don’t think I have ever seen a salt print outside of the 1850’s/1860’s. They were a difficult process that gave way to the more economical albumens. Salt prints are quite rare and hard to find for a reason.

Rob M

Were they really easier and more economical? I have my doubts.

Goodwin was based in New York. They could have easily sent an employee or two to retrieve a wagon load of ocean water every week, which would have been basically free.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Were they really easier and more economical? I have my doubts.

Goodwin was based in New York. They could have easily sent an employee or two to retrieve a wagon load of ocean water every week, which would have been basically free.

I have to wonder. You came on like an expert, then I do minimal research and I find things like this:

The salt print was the dominant paper-based photographic process for producing positive prints during the period from 1839 through approximately 1860.

He made what he called "sensitive paper" for "photogenic drawing" by wetting a sheet of writing paper with a weak solution of ordinary table salt (sodium chloride), blotting and drying it, then brushing one side with a strong solution of silver nitrate.

So it was obsolete by the time the cards in question were produced AND it was nowhere near the, grab some ocean water and you're good to go process that you seem to think it was, but rather a measured solution of salt water. While that may be inexpensive it's not brainless.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I have to wonder. You came on like an expert, then I do minimal research and I find things like this:

The salt print was the dominant paper-based photographic process for producing positive prints during the period from 1839 through approximately 1860.

He made what he called "sensitive paper" for "photogenic drawing" by wetting a sheet of writing paper with a weak solution of ordinary table salt (sodium chloride), blotting and drying it, then brushing one side with a strong solution of silver nitrate.

So it was obsolete by the time the cards in question were produced AND it was nowhere near the, grab some ocean water and you're good to go process that you seem to think it was, but rather a measured solution of salt water. While that may be inexpensive it's not brainless.

How can salt water and silver nitrate be obsolete?

It would have been perfectly fine to use salt water and silver nitrate (or very diluted albumen and salt) instead of albumen and silver nitrate.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

How can salt water and silver nitrate be obsolete?

It would have been perfectly fine to use salt water and silver nitrate (or very diluted albumen and salt) instead of albumen and silver nitrate.

Definition of obsolete
1 a : no longer in use or no longer useful

[tedzan]

Hey "Set Builder"

Thanks, for detouring this thread.....24 of the 34 posts here dwell on your freaken "salt" discussion, which is totally inconsequential to this thread's topic.

Why couldn't you have the common decency to start your own damn thread on your controversial subject matter ? ?


TED Z
.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey "Set Builder"

Thanks, for detouring this thread.....24 of the 34 posts here dwell on your freaken "salt" discussion, which is totally inconsequential to this thread's topic.

Why couldn't you have the common decency to start your own damn thread on your controversial subject matter ? ?


TED Z
.

Sorry again, Ted. They keep responding to my posts and I can't resist answering!

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Sorry again, Ted. They keep responding to my posts and I can't resist answering!

STOP right here and post your own thread, then you can continue your discussion till the moon turns blue.

[tedzan]

Double post.

[tedzan]

OK, hopefully this "N162 train" is switching back onto the mainline.

Thanks guys,


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If these cards were popular, as they almost surely were, wouldn't it be logical that they would be distributed into a second year? Why give up a good thing. They may have printed more than they could have given out in 1888, so why not keep them coming?

Originally Posted by oaks1912

Ted and Joe, I think that you're both right...Hear me out... The previous year (1887), Gypsy Queen cigarettes were introduced to the San Francisco / Northern California market. I' have an advertisement from the September 24, 1887 CITY ARGUS (San Francisco). This FRONT PAGE ad promotes Gypsy Queen Cigarettes being "The Latest and Best" and that they contain photographs of all the leading pugilists, baseball players and actresses. While issued as one series, modern collectors break it down into three series.... N-171 Actresses, N-174 Boxing, and N-175 Baseball.


Taking it a step further, most baseball ONLY sets (T-206, 1933 Goudey, etc ) were primarily distributed during baseball season (Early April to late September) . However this series, much like the N-162 Champions set issued a year later, contained subjects from multiple sports / activities. It wouldn't necessarily have to be issued exclusively during baseball season

Would it make sense that a multi-sport / subject set could run from September to perhaps April or May of the following year. This would address the issue of coupons have two different years on them, and the handwritten date written on Ted's example (Which obviously was not done at the factory) when a gift was presented to a family member or friend.

Hello Barry and Mark

Both of you make some really great points here in your posts. Thanks to both of you for chiming in.

Most sportscards issues enjoy a one (or less) year run. But, I can personally account for one issue that spanned two years.

The very first color sportscards I collected as a kid were the 1948 LEAF Boxing issue, started in 1948. This set of cards were so popular, that LEAF had a 2nd major press run in 1949.
Distribution of these LEAF cards was throughout the country well into the Summer of 1949.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ramram]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Were they really easier and more economical? I have my doubts.

Goodwin was based in New York. They could have easily sent an employee or two to retrieve a wagon load of ocean water every week, which would have been basically free.

Dang, so every photographer in history was a fool and decided to switch over to albumen prints despite the fact that, according to you, they were a more difficult process and more expensive to make. Interesting.

Rob M

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by ramram

Dang, so every photographer in history was a fool and decided to switch over to albumen prints despite the fact that, according to you, they were a more difficult process and more expensive to make. Interesting.

Rob M

You're forgetting that these were cheap cards inserted in cigarette packs?

This is like saying that DVDs are obsolete, because we have blu-ray now.

Would you rather give away blu-rays, or DVDs for free?

[ramram]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

You're forgetting that these were cheap cards inserted in cigarette packs?

This is like saying that DVDs are obsolete, because we have blu-ray now.

Would you rather give away blu-rays, or DVDs for free?

Umm, no, more like Blu-ray compared to 8-track tapes. Old Judge cards were produced 30 years after salt prints faded away.

Rob M

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by ramram

Umm, no, more like Blu-ray compared to 8-track tapes. Old Judge cards were produced 30 years after salt prints faded away.

Rob M

So you're telling me that the blurred, faded, matte OJ on the left was made exactly the same way as the albumen print on the right?

.

The OJ on the left looks like a very primitive salt print to me.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

So you're telling me that the blurred, faded, matte OJ on the left was made exactly the same way as the albumen print on the right?

.

The OJ on the left looks like a very primitive salt print to me.

I can post an image where the N172 is much clearer than the N173, that is just selective analysis. The bottom line is that N173s were first generation, the N172s second generation. They are both, however, albumin prints and BTW N172s all have a glossy finish to start with. If you subject the card to enough wear and tear it will look bad. If you actually handled an Old Judge small card instead of pulling theories out of the air you would already know this. As for cost, the cards in the Old Judge packs cost more than the cigarettes. Elimination of these premium's costs was one reason for the formation of the ATC.