Does Pre-war mean pre-1939?

[Rich Falvo]

Doesn't he say prior to 1940, not 1939? I agree with him. That's a good compromise dividing line. The war had started by then, even if the US was not directly involved yet.

[Leon]

I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended. There is no right answer as it's subjective though technically if something says pre-wwII it would have to be before the war started. For collecting that isn't the way I have thought of it. There are too many sets produced in those 1939-1945 years for me to go there, though admittedly, most are smaller sets and issues. To each their own though.... Other than the technical definition, it is interesting to see collectors tell me factually what it means to collecting.


F Unc 1939. Wheaties & MobilGas St.Paul Team
F-Unc 1939 Pittsburgh Pirates- Duquesne beer premium
F Unc 1940's Piels - Terry, Ballantine- Klinger,Davis & Trommers Coasters
F Unc 1940s Rheingold Beer Premium- Foxx, 8 x 10
F Unc 1940s M & Ms - Joe Dimaggio Sports Club card
F Unc 1940 Crowleys Milk Milosevich and Silvonic- blank and used-postal backs
F Unc 1942 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Cuban Cristal drink- Martinez
F Unc 1943 Golden Quality Ice Cream Damaltron
F Unc 1944 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1945 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels


H-Unc 1939 KMBC,Wheaties,Mobil- Kansas Team premium w/Rizzuto
H-Unc 1939 Father & Son Shoes- Gantenbein, 3x4,(blank back)
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Copple
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Skelton
H-Unc 1939 Cubs Picture Pack (25 w/Dean) & Env.
H-Unc 1939 Phili Team Issue-Gantenbein,Ross(blank back)7x10
H-Unc 1940 Phillies Team Issue 6 x 8, blank back- Marty
H-Unc 1940 Reds Premium - Harry Thobe
H-Unc 1940 Seattle Raniers team premium
H-Unc 1940 Kansas City Blues Team- Radio premium
H-Unc 1940 Bisons Team issue-Giebell,Martin,Stromme,Zubik(all same size)
H-Unc 1940 Cincinnati Reds Team Issue - Dejan, Thompson, Turner <
H-Unc 1940 Cubs Team Set - Lotshaw w/envelope
H-Unc 1940 Bob Bragan homemade card, 3 x 4
H-Unc 1940 Dimaggio, Boosters card and photo premium
H-Unc 1941 Dodgers Picture Pack complete w/Reese
H-Unc 1941 Seattle Rainers (Sicks' Stadium) Lawrence
H-Unc 1941 Montreal Team issue Bell,Head,Graham (blank backs)
H-Unc 1941 Emil Sick's Champions (Sicks' Stadium)Xmas card
H-Unc 1941 & 1942 Tickets - Martin Appreciation & Southworth Dinner
H-Unc 1942 Editorial Bruguera #12 Babe Ruth
H-Unc 1943 Renegar Studios premium- Hicks
H-Unc 1943 Ted Williams & Babe Ruth- First Meeting
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Browns 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Cardinals 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943/44 La Campana premium- Salazar & Arteaga
H-Unc 1943 Grand Studio Sproull PSA 7.5
H-Unc 1944 Grand Studio Stengel PSA 3
H-Unc 1945 Cleveland Indian Premium

M-Unc 1941 The Sporting News Pub.Co.- White Sox premium
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees (back)
M-Unc 1943 Toledo Mudhen Guide (blank back)- Ralph LinWeber
M-Unc 1943 The Sporting News Yankees Team
M-Unc 1945 Paul Stuarts Parade Sportive Royals team

R334 1939 Playball Gomex, Schact, Williams
R335 1940 Playball Mack,R336 Playball 1941 V.Dimaggio,Reese
R336 1941 Play ball Wartime sheet of 12

ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp album/stamps-
ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp- Bob Price
ST-Unc 1943 World Champion NY Yankees w/album and ad form

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended. There is no right answer as it's subjective though technically if something says pre-wwII it would have to be before the war started. For collecting that isn't the way I have thought of it. There are too many sets produced in those 1939-1945 years for me to go there, though admittedly, most are smaller sets and issues. To each their own though.... Other than the technical definition, it is interesting to see collectors tell me factually what it means to collecting.


F Unc 1939. Wheaties & MobilGas St.Paul Team
F-Unc 1939 Pittsburgh Pirates- Duquesne beer premium
F Unc 1940's Piels - Terry, Ballantine- Klinger,Davis & Trommers Coasters
F Unc 1940s Rheingold Beer Premium- Foxx, 8 x 10
F Unc 1940s M & Ms - Joe Dimaggio Sports Club card
F Unc 1940 Crowleys Milk Milosevich and Silvonic- blank and used-postal backs
F Unc 1942 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1943 Cuban Cristal drink- Martinez
F Unc 1943 Golden Quality Ice Cream Damaltron
F Unc 1944 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels
F Unc 1945 Oertel Brewing Louisville Colonels


H-Unc 1939 KMBC,Wheaties,Mobil- Kansas Team premium w/Rizzuto
H-Unc 1939 Father & Son Shoes- Gantenbein, 3x4,(blank back)
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Copple
H-Unc 1939 Kimball Automotive club Trois-Rivieres -Skelton
H-Unc 1939 Cubs Picture Pack (25 w/Dean) & Env.
H-Unc 1939 Phili Team Issue-Gantenbein,Ross(blank back)7x10
H-Unc 1940 Phillies Team Issue 6 x 8, blank back- Marty
H-Unc 1940 Reds Premium - Harry Thobe
H-Unc 1940 Seattle Raniers team premium
H-Unc 1940 Kansas City Blues Team- Radio premium
H-Unc 1940 Bisons Team issue-Giebell,Martin,Stromme,Zubik(all same size)
H-Unc 1940 Cincinnati Reds Team Issue - Dejan, Thompson, Turner <
H-Unc 1940 Cubs Team Set - Lotshaw w/envelope
H-Unc 1940 Bob Bragan homemade card, 3 x 4
H-Unc 1940 Dimaggio, Boosters card and photo premium
H-Unc 1941 Dodgers Picture Pack complete w/Reese
H-Unc 1941 Seattle Rainers (Sicks' Stadium) Lawrence
H-Unc 1941 Montreal Team issue Bell,Head,Graham (blank backs)
H-Unc 1941 Emil Sick's Champions (Sicks' Stadium)Xmas card
H-Unc 1941 & 1942 Tickets - Martin Appreciation & Southworth Dinner
H-Unc 1942 Editorial Bruguera #12 Babe Ruth
H-Unc 1943 Renegar Studios premium- Hicks
H-Unc 1943 Ted Williams & Babe Ruth- First Meeting
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Browns 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943 St.Louis Cardinals 8 x 10
H-Unc 1943/44 La Campana premium- Salazar & Arteaga
H-Unc 1943 Grand Studio Sproull PSA 7.5
H-Unc 1944 Grand Studio Stengel PSA 3
H-Unc 1945 Cleveland Indian Premium

M-Unc 1941 The Sporting News Pub.Co.- White Sox premium
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees
M-Unc 1941 Cuban Zig Zag Magazine, NY Yankees (back)
M-Unc 1943 Toledo Mudhen Guide (blank back)- Ralph LinWeber
M-Unc 1943 The Sporting News Yankees Team
M-Unc 1945 Paul Stuarts Parade Sportive Royals team

R334 1939 Playball Gomex, Schact, Williams
R335 1940 Playball Mack,R336 Playball 1941 V.Dimaggio,Reese
R336 1941 Play ball Wartime sheet of 12

ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp album/stamps-
ST-Unc 1940 Associated Stations stamp- Bob Price
ST-Unc 1943 World Champion NY Yankees w/album and ad form

Leon- I usually agree with everything you say, but this doesn't compute to me:

'I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended.'

[Leon]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Leon- I usually agree with everything you say, but this doesn't compute to me:

'I have always thought of pre war to be 1945, and back, as that is when the war ended.'

First of all I can't believe anyone agrees with me . But regardless of that you might be interpreting what I said incorrectly. I guess it could be called the end of the war category? But as others have mentioned too, I have always felt the category for pre war was when WWII ended. Otherwise, they would be war cards. Really, whatever floats your boat is fine by me. As I had mentioned way above also, I don't think there can be a definitive answer except the technical one (others may disagree). Wiki says WWII started in 1941, so if you go with them (and most others), anything before that is pre-wwII. I am not sure how that can be argued in a technical manner. But for this board and I, because it can be somewhat controversial, we went with a different way to address it; WWII & Older
.

[Cozumeleno]

That's my article, so I'll chime in.

First, since there's some confusion, as a point of clarification, my definition is pre-1940 cards (i.e. 1939 counts while 1940 doesn't). I realize there are some 1939 issues that technically came after the 'start' of the war but trying to separate those out is virtually impossible.

There's no consensus on it as we see here. My pre-1940 date hinges on the fact that these are called 'pre' war cards. A 1940 card, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered pre-war because war was already occurring. And using dates of when paper rationing started, when cards declined, etc., never really made sense to me. They're called pre-war not pre-paper shortage, etc. I can respect differing opinions on that. I'd just disagree a little there. I mean, if there was no paper shortage at all, does that mean we don't have a pre-war era?

I can understand a 1945 date more than I can 1941, to be honest. I interpret pre-war as before the war began but others may interpret it as when the war ended. Again, I don't agree but I can understand that. But 1941 won't ever make sense to me because pre-war cards encompass more than simply U.S. issues. If we're using a country's (in this case, the U.S.) entry date into WWII as the determining factor that means pre-war dates would differ depending on the country someone is in. To me, the era should be the same no matter where you live and having pre-war eras with different dates around the globe seems like it would be far too confusing.

All of that said, I realize there's no consensus, nor will there ever be. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it

[Leon]

Hey Anson
Nice article. I feel the point you make is salient concerning the start of the war, when taken in the context of the world. I guess it matters that we are discussing pre-war baseball cards and most collectors are really only thinking US.....right or wrong. The 1941 date seems like the correct one to use in that instance.

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

That's my article, so I'll chime in.

First, since there's some confusion, as a point of clarification, my definition is pre-1940 cards (i.e. 1939 counts while 1940 doesn't). I realize there are some 1939 issues that technically came after the 'start' of the war but trying to separate those out is virtually impossible.

There's no consensus on it as we see here. My pre-1940 date hinges on the fact that these are called 'pre' war cards. A 1940 card, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered pre-war because war was already occurring. And using dates of when paper rationing started, when cards declined, etc., never really made sense to me. They're called pre-war not pre-paper shortage, etc. I can respect differing opinions on that. I'd just disagree a little there. I mean, if there was no paper shortage at all, does that mean we don't have a pre-war era?

I can understand a 1945 date more than I can 1941, to be honest. I interpret pre-war as before the war began but others may interpret it as when the war ended. Again, I don't agree but I can understand that. But 1941 won't ever make sense to me because pre-war cards encompass more than simply U.S. issues. If we're using a country's (in this case, the U.S.) entry date into WWII as the determining factor that means pre-war dates would differ depending on the country someone is in. To me, the era should be the same no matter where you live and having pre-war eras with different dates around the globe seems like it would be far too confusing.

All of that said, I realize there's no consensus, nor will there ever be. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it

[insidethewrapper]

This is the way I look at various card issued dates :

19th Century
Early 20th Century ( 1900-1945)
Mid 20th Century ( 1946-1980)
Late 20th Century - Modern Era ( 1981-1999)
21st Century ( 2000 - Present)

[Cozumeleno]

That's fair, Leon, and thanks for the compliment. The majority of the cards in the context here are certainly American baseball issues. While I'm not a fan of having different pre-war eras for different types of cards, if a separation of sorts was justified, it would probably be for American baseball.

Given that my site includes football, basketball, and hockey, as well as numerous international issues (I catalog any set that has even a single baseball, basketball, football, or hockey card), I sort of have to look at the overall context. That said, I can understand why only collectors of American baseball issues would define the period a little differently.

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Anson
Nice article. I feel the point you make is salient concerning the start of the war, when taken in the context of the world. I guess it matters that we are discussing pre-war baseball cards and most collectors are really only thinking US.....right or wrong. The 1941 date seems like the correct one to use in that instance.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

That's my article, so I'll chime in.

First, since there's some confusion, as a point of clarification, my definition is pre-1940 cards (i.e. 1939 counts while 1940 doesn't). I realize there are some 1939 issues that technically came after the 'start' of the war but trying to separate those out is virtually impossible.

There's no consensus on it as we see here. My pre-1940 date hinges on the fact that these are called 'pre' war cards. A 1940 card, in my opinion, shouldn't be considered pre-war because war was already occurring. And using dates of when paper rationing started, when cards declined, etc., never really made sense to me. They're called pre-war not pre-paper shortage, etc. I can respect differing opinions on that. I'd just disagree a little there. I mean, if there was no paper shortage at all, does that mean we don't have a pre-war era?

I can understand a 1945 date more than I can 1941, to be honest. I interpret pre-war as before the war began but others may interpret it as when the war ended. Again, I don't agree but I can understand that. But 1941 won't ever make sense to me because pre-war cards encompass more than simply U.S. issues. If we're using a country's (in this case, the U.S.) entry date into WWII as the determining factor that means pre-war dates would differ depending on the country someone is in. To me, the era should be the same no matter where you live and having pre-war eras with different dates around the globe seems like it would be far too confusing.

All of that said, I realize there's no consensus, nor will there ever be. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it

Why not use 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria? Why not use 1935 when Italy invaded Ethiopia and Germany invaded the British and French controlled Saar Valley? Why not choose 1937 when Japan invaded China? Why do you use the date of 1939 when England declared war on Germany instead of the others? You say that was because war was going on, but it was going on those other dates too.

We use World War 2 as a defining event because it is the only time the world was at war. At its peak, there were shooting wars in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania. Australia and North America were attacked by the Axis. South American was the only region not under direct attack, although there was fighting with uboats in the Caribbean and South Atlantic. Many Latin American countries declared war on the Axis and Brazil fought along side the Allies.

The 1941 date is the only one that makes sense to me. In 1939 it was a European war much like WW1, Germany vs. England. The "World War" broke out in 1941 with 2 events. Germany breaking their non aggression pact with
Russia bringing them into the war. Japan deciding to go to war with USA, England and the Netherlands and attacking Pearl Harbor. These two events brought the other 3 major military forces into the war, Russia, Japan and USA and caused most countries in the world to align themselves with one side or the other. I choose the date when the war started in full for the world and not a European date or date of another regional conflict.

[ruth_rookie]

I just did a search for “pre-war cards” on eBay, which listed everything 1941 and earlier. And since we all know eBay knows everything (LOLOLOL) that settles it.

[Cozumeleno]

I use 1939 because that is the most generally accepted date for the beginning of World War II. Really, you could list all sorts of conflicts that appeared before then. But 1939 is hardly my own random date and, whether the best theoretical date or not, it's the date that is most accepted universally as 'the beginning' of World War II.

Originally Posted by rats60

Why not use 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria? Why not use 1935 when Italy invaded Ethiopia and Germany invaded the British and French controlled Saar Valley? Why not choose 1937 when Japan invaded China? Why do you use the date of 1939 when England declared war on Germany instead of the others? You say that was because war was going on, but it was going on those other dates too.

We use World War 2 as a defining event because it is the only time the world was at war. At its peak, there were shooting wars in Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania. Australia and North America were attacked by the Axis. South American was the only region not under direct attack, although there was fighting with uboats in the Caribbean and South Atlantic. Many Latin American countries declared war on the Axis and Brazil fought along side the Allies.

The 1941 date is the only one that makes sense to me. In 1939 it was a European war much like WW1, Germany vs. England. The "World War" broke out in 1941 with 2 events. Germany breaking their non aggression pact with
Russia bringing them into the war. Japan deciding to go to war with USA, England and the Netherlands and attacking Pearl Harbor. These two events brought the other 3 major military forces into the war, Russia, Japan and USA and caused most countries in the world to align themselves with one side or the other. I choose the date when the war started in full for the world and not a European date or date of another regional conflict.

[joshuanip]

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

There is this "little" area north of the US where cards - mostly hockey - were just as big a part of the culture as baseball cards in the US.

[leaflover]

Are "Prewar" and "Vintage" synonymous?

[ALR-bishop]

What we need is an official hobby definition of terms such as pre war, vintage, variation, master set, and rookie card. Whoever is in charge of this hobby should clearly define these terms

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

What we need is an official hobby definition of terms such as pre war, vintage, variation, master set, and rookie card. Whoever is in charge of this hobby should clearly define these terms

I thought "True Rookie Card" took precedence

[oldjudge]

LOL, for me pre-war is pre-April 1917 when the U.S. declared war on Germany.

[familytoad]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

What we need is an official hobby definition of terms such as pre war, vintage, variation, master set, and rookie card. Whoever is in charge of this hobby should clearly define these terms

Well I always assumed that Leon, Frank B & Brian P ( beme) were in charge of this hobby along with you, Al...

What’s your Official “ PreWar Monster Kraken “ number? And how do you define that count?

[JollyElm]

(I'm going to take a pseudo-intellectual approach to the topic...)

Everything is always about hindsight. Looking back, it is generally accepted that WWII 'began' in 1939. However, if you took a time machine back to 1939, I highly doubt the events going on were thought of as a full scale war to the vast majority of the world. Since (as I'm sure others have noted) we know how the war escalated, eventually consumed the planet, and finally came to an end in 1945, finding the true beginning is nothing more than a scholarly pursuit. But since the US is the center of the baseball card collecting universe, WWII began for us on December 7, 1941 (FDR/Congress declared it as such the following day). So, unless card sets were produced and distributed in the last month of 1941, you would almost have to say pre-war is anything before 1942.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Really!? For all intensive purposes cards stopped after the US entered WW2, roughly after Pearl Harbor (sorry moe berg fans). That’s when paper rationing started, men’s pro baseball went on haitus, and cards production died off (unfortunately as playball was starting to get it right with their 1941 release).

Baseball and it’s cards were primarily US culture (sans the odd ball Cuban and Ruth tobacco issues) back then, so I follow US history in determining prewar.

Joshua

I am rarely a member of the grammar bureau of investigation, but I need to point this one out as I have seen several people muck it up. It is 'all intents and purposes' which means under most usual circumstances.