Proud of our Youth !

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Son of a gun (see what I did there? ). I get busy outside of the hobby, visit this site less often over the past couple of months, and I miss the start of this thread. Let's dig into the entire picture here, boys.

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

so much wrong with this post, time to break it down:

and they will be just as ineffective, protests are a tired monument to the delusional wasteland of the 60's that is half of our nation's issues today

please explain how a bunch of dumb children marching is going to stop one angry, crazy person from killing a lot of people in the future. please, I'd love to hear it.

They aren't prevalent , not at all, of the 36k annual gun deaths in the USA 20k of those are suicide, and the majority of the remaining are the result of gang violence, only a tiny % are due to "mass shootings" gun control has been proven to show it won't do one tiny thing to that % either, as anyone determined to kill a lot of people is not going to be stopped by a gun law

why isn't the media reporting this accurately? hmmmm?

A- no mass shooting in the history of the USA has been done by an automatic weapon, semi-auto sure, but not a fully automatic, so ,by proxy, not one single "assault weapon" has been used in a school shooting either.

B- fully automatic weapons are expensive to buy (grandfathered in relics that cost tens of thousands) and require a year's wait and more $$$ in tax stamps and fees.

C- AR-15 is not high powered, nor fully automatic, nor a military weapon, nor an assault rifle, it's a moderate to low powered semi-automatic, varmint and home protection weapon. It looks scary because of it's cool tactical garb, but underneath the weapon itself is just a hunting rifle with a magazine

D- did the founding fathers plan for the computer and mass media ? so does your first amendment rights to freedom of speech end with the quill and ink? that's a fallacious and silly argument, (and btw, they knew of gatlin gun type weapons and the early attempts at semi-auto)

times may change, but my natural rights to protect myself with firearms does not, neither does the power of my constitution, want to change it? fine, follow the rules and pass an amendment, get it through 2/3rds of Congress and have it ratified by 3/4ths of the states. Something tells me you KNOW this will never happen as 100m+ gun owners would oppose you 100%.

You need to learn about guns before you make one more statement about them as you come off as woefully ignorant of the issue and are making naive and embarrassing cliche'd arguments.

First, let's start with this post, as it is phenomenal. I do have a few things/details to add...

- AR (as in AR15 or AR10) stands for ArmaLite, not Assault Rifle. Assault is an action, not a tangible item.

- AR15s can be powerful if chambered in something bigger than the traditional 5.56 or .223. I know Alexander Arms has a 50 Beowulf AR15, there is a .458 SOCOM AR15 - those are both hard hitting, powerful rounds. However, to my knowledge, no shooting in the US has ever utilized those rounds, or any round bigger than the 5.56/.223. Those larger-caliber AR15s and AR10s - chambered in 7.62/.308 - are more powerful than the traditional AR15, but are also more expensive, thus the use of the 5.56/.223. I mention this because AR15s can definitely be higher powered, but the mass shootings everyone points to use the lower-powered calibers.

- The estimated number of civilian-owned firearms in this country is over 300 million. That's estimated to be around 42% of the world's civilian gun ownership total. America rocks. If guns were a problem, this country and the world would know it.

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Now for my thoughts...

- I am not proud of our youth for their sheepish protests; the majority are following, ignorantly following to boot. I'm even more disappointed in our "educators" for not pressing them on the issues. I emailed my high school's principal and superintendent when I heard that they allowed a walkout. I challenged them to challenge the students, because that is their job. The students have the right to protest, but as educators, they should be challenging the students to prevent protest in ignorance. I asked them if they challenged the students to research the group Empower (the one who started the mass school walkout protests) and its origins. I asked if they questioned the students on what AR stands for, and what a semi-automatic rifle is and how it functions compared to a bolt-action rifle and fully automatic rifle. I asked if they were challenging the kids on the type of legislation they are pushing for and how it would prevent any previous mass shootings, and any future mass shootings. I asked if they were questioning the kids on the details of the Parkland shooting.

- It has been 1.5-2 months since the Parkland shooting, and we're finding out more and more about the negligence of our government which enabled the shooting to occur. Cruz and his brother had been known to law enforcement over 40 times (I think the number is up to 60), including a YouTube comment under Cruz's name literally stating that he wants to become a professional school shooter. Cruz was then permitted into the PROMISE program, a program designed to limit the number of arrests of youth, to lower the uneven number of minorities vs. white youth in jail or whatever. I believe the superintendent of the school system down there implemented the program; he is from politically-corrupt Chicago. Had Cruz been properly documented and not protected by law enforcement and such a program, he never would have been able to purchase a firearm. Strike 1 against our government.

- We now know that the school resource officer AND the law enforcement that arrived on scene failed to engage Cruz during the shooting. In fact, they stayed outside the building, and didn't arrest Cruz until he had left school grounds. Strike 2 against our government.

- The most common denominator/factor of most - if not all - mass shootings is medication. Cruz and nearly - again, if not all - mass shooters have been on some sort of anti-depressent/anxiety medication. Who is in charge of our healthcare system? The government. However, I have yet to see a protest against the over/improper prescription of these medications. Strike 3.

I mentioned 3 issues with the shooting, not one of which was the firearm itself. Someone has to pull the trigger on a firearm for a projectile to be fired.

We have common sense gun laws in this country already. It's up to the government officials to properly enforce those laws, which they did not with Parkland.

Additionally, to direct the attention back onto our youth, I believe they are being used as puppets by the establishment and the media to push an agenda. They won't give pro-2A-Parkland-survivor Kyle Kashuv the time of day, but will parade David Hogg and pro-Cuba Emma Gonzalez onto their networks 24/7.

Also, who is challenging these youth "protesters" how their proposed legislation will actually work and prevent mass shootings? They're just letting them spew ignorant talking points.

Here's what I propose...

- Hire former law enforcement and military veterans to be armed guards at schools.

- Arm the teachers in a voluntary manner, while providing proper training. Cut funding elsewhere, most likely athletically, to balance the expenses and not burden taxpayers any further.

- Overhaul the education system to get back to the fundamental essentials that used to be taught - i.e. life lessons, skilled labor education, and basic morals - instead of the social justice indoctrination and bloated emphasis on "testing" currently found in our school systems (again, run by government).

- Target drug smugglers and dealers HARD to get drugs off the streets. This should help prevent addiction problems at an early age, as well as stabilize the traditional family.

- Keep improving the economy, measuring our welfare programs by the number of people coming off. Again, this should help stabilize the traditional family, thus giving our youth a more stable upbringing.


I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat; I am an American, and a proud one at that. Therefore, my beliefs center around the Constitution, a blessing from our Founding Fathers and God Himself in response to a war for freedom against a tyrannical government. That's why the Second Amendment is written, that's why it's so high on the list, and that's why it includes the phrase "shall not be infringed".


I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, so I apologize if any of this has been stated before.

[packs]

The federal government and local government are two separate entities and your post is blurring the lines between them in several areas. Our government is not the government of Florida unless you live in Florida. People aren't corrupt by default because of where they come from (Chicago, for example) and you don't really give any credit to high school students being able to think for themselves. You are simultaneously suggesting these kids are victims of group think while also suggesting they should think the way you do. That's a contradiction.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by packs

The federal government and local government are two separate entities and your post is blurring the lines between them in several areas. Our government is not the government of Florida unless you live in Florida. People aren't corrupt by default because of where they come from (Chicago, for example) and you don't really give any credit to high school students being able to think for themselves. You are simultaneously suggesting these kids are victims of group think while also suggesting they should think the way you do. That's a contradiction.

- Not sure where I blurred the lines between the two. Both the FBI and local law enforcement were aware of Cruz.

- Not sure what your point is about our government not being Florida's government. So are only people from Florida allowed to comment on this matter?

- You're right, people aren't corrupt by default because of where they are from. However, context clues, a track record of corruption, and common sense tells us not to trust politicians, let alone from Chicago. By the way, Chicago is a perfect example of gun control being not only ineffective, but detrimental to the public's safety.

- I refuse to give credit for their ability to think for themselves when the original school walkout was organized by Empower, not individual students. I've also seen many interviews that suggest they are very uneducated on the subjects they are bringing attention to.

- They are absolutely victims of group think, but I do not want them to think like me. I want them to have all of the facts, something I know for a fact they aren't provided with in school, and simply for them to think. If they end up thinking like me in the end, fine, but I just want them to think.


Instead of trying to (incorrectly) nit-pick any sort of semantics in my post and try to demean me politically, do you have any comments on my suggestions to prevent future mass shootings?

[packs]

I wasn't demeaning you at all. I just thought it's important to distinguish between generalities. For example, you had said our government gets a strike because the guard on duty and local law enforcement didn't enter the school. That's not a strike against our government, that's a strike against two individuals who work for local law enforcement.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by packs

I wasn't demeaning you at all. I just thought it's important to distinguish between generalities. For example, you had said our government gets a strike because the guard on duty and local law enforcement didn't enter the school. That's not a strike against our government, that's a strike against two individuals who work for local law enforcement.

This just single-handily ended this entire debate (albeit with an incorrect statement since there were more than 2 security/law enforcement individuals that did not enter the building).

Blame the individual, not the government, which could also be re-worded for this discussion.

Blame the individual, not the gun.

[packs]

I wasn't debating. I was pointing out generalities in your post, like the one referenced above, a person being corrupt by default because of where they're from, and you not giving people credit for their own thoughts.

I guess I wasn't clear either: "our government" isn't the government of Florida, which is who those enforcement agents work for. So our government played no role in the local officials failing to enter the building, who are part of Florida's state and local government agencies.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by packs

I wasn't debating. I was pointing out generalities in your post, like the one referenced above, a person being corrupt by default because of where they're from, and you not giving people credit for their own thoughts.

I guess I wasn't clear either: "our government" isn't the government of Florida, which is who those enforcement agents work for. So our government played no role in the local officials failing to enter the building, who are part of Florida's state and local government agencies.

http://abc7chicago.com/politics/repo...in-us/3478310/

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

... do you have any comments on my suggestions to prevent future mass shootings?

"Arm the teachers in a voluntary manner, while providing proper training. Cut funding elsewhere, most likely athletically, to balance the expenses and not burden taxpayers any further".

While I do like your suggestions, in general, I personally place a very high value on youth athletics. I know my town does spend a lot of money on youth sports, but a lot of it is also parents volunteering (coaching/concession stand/running the leagues/maintaining fields) and donations from sponsors. I rank kids being active higher than arming the teachers, if I was in charge of portioning money.

And I'm also torn on whether to arm the teachers. Good points have been made for/against it, so while I'd be open to it, I wouldn't "pull the trigger" (bad pun, sorry) if I were in charge of making the decision.

[CollectingAmericasPastime]

Originally Posted by packs

I wasn't debating. I was pointing out generalities in your post, like the one referenced above, a person being corrupt by default because of where they're from, and you not giving people credit for their own thoughts.

I guess I wasn't clear either: "our government" isn't the government of Florida, which is who those enforcement agents work for. So our government played no role in the day's failings of local officials who are part of Florida's government agencies.

I actually never stated that he was corrupt. I inferred it based on the corruption in Chicago, but that's well known and documented. Again, these aren't the thoughts of individuals, but rather the thoughts of a group being followed by the students, largely in a blind manner. I can't in good conscious give credit for that.

The FBI is the FEDERAL Bureau of Investigation, and were tipped off on Cruz. They were well involved, and failed to do their job. Whether it be a Florida office location or not, they are still part of the federal government. Additionally, again speaking in a general sense, I talked about the flaws in our education system, which stem from the Department of Education, a federal department.

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

"Arm the teachers in a voluntary manner, while providing proper training. Cut funding elsewhere, most likely athletically, to balance the expenses and not burden taxpayers any further".

While I do like your suggestions, in general, I personally place a very high value on youth athletics. I know my town does spend a lot of money on youth sports, but a lot of it is also parents volunteering (coaching/concession stand/running the leagues/maintaining fields) and donations from sponsors. I rank kids being active higher than arming the teachers, if I was in charge of portioning money.

And I'm also torn on whether to arm the teachers. Good points have been made for/against it, so while I'd be open to it, I wouldn't "pull the trigger" (bad pun, sorry) if I were in charge of making the decision.

I agree on finding other ways in the budget or other ways in general to fund the training for teachers, as I like school athletics as well. I only said athletics because it's the least detrimental to the academics side of school.

I'm not for arming all teachers. Like I said, it would have to be done in a voluntary manner. There are many teachers that are military veterans, and with others being gun enthusiasts (see Hickock45 on YouTube). I think those are the type of people who would make a great second line of defense.

[clydepepper]

It ALL comes down to personal responsibility and accountability.

THAT, IMO, covers the entire discussion!


I cannot believe that anyone would argue against that, but you probably will.


...and, that, is the world we live in...