O/T Why doesn't MLB Celebrate Larry Doby more?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Perhaps it's simply a case of the ole 'First Man on the Moon' effect. Everyone always talks about Neil Armstrong, but far fewer give Buzz Aldrin his due respect. Could be a parallel there.

A French film called "Nagasaki, Mon Amour" would not have made it.

[packs]

I think posters are right about Doby being #2. It's not surprising to me that he doesn't get the same pomp as Jackie. His accomplishment wasn't totally lost though I don't think. He is certainly in the HOF for it more than his career numbers.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by packs

I think posters are right about Doby being #2. It's not surprising to me that he doesn't get the same pomp as Jackie. His accomplishment wasn't totally lost though I don't think. He is certainly in the HOF for it more than his career numbers.

I'd argue that Monte Irwin is another trailblazer that is woefully ignored.

[packs]

I'd argue he is also in the HOF for his trailblazing and not his numbers. While there might not be a day for them and their numbers aren't universally retired, baseball has acknowledged their accomplishments.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd argue that Monte Irwin is another trailblazer that is woefully ignored.

For someone being called "woefully ignored", it would probably be best to spell his name correctly.

[rhettyeakley]

I guess I’d argue that as it relates to the American league he was #1 not #2. No American League team or city (that didn’t also have a NL team) had anything to do with Jackie Robinson.

I agree on Monte Irvin, it is interesting that he (Irvin) was viewed by many as the other Guy that would have been #1 had it not been Jackie Robinson.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by packs

I think posters are right about Doby being #2. It's not surprising to me that he doesn't get the same pomp as Jackie. His accomplishment wasn't totally lost though I don't think. He is certainly in the HOF for it more than his career numbers.

Career 49.6 War, 7 x all star with a nearly identical number of hits as Jackie Robinson doesn’t really support your last statement. He wasn’t a first ballot HOFer for sure but he isn’t in the Hof only because he was the first AL African American.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't think he's a HOFer just based on pure numbers.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (133), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 124 (153), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 72 (275), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (346), Average HOFer ≈ 50

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think he's a HOFer just based on pure numbers.


Hall of Fame Statistics





Black Ink
Batting - 18 (133), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 124 (153), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 72 (275), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (346), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Those are based only on his Major League stats. Keep in mind Doby played nearly 5 full seasons in the Negro Leagues as well. Obviously stats for those seasons are problematic but they still happened. We have a hard time with the players that did both as it makes things difficult to calculate. Much easier when they played their entire career in the Negro Leagues and we just resign ourselves to the knowledge that a lot of evidence for enshrinement is a bit anecdotal and can never be calculated like we are accustomed to.

Comparing Larry Doby’s Major League statistics to Bernie Williams’ career statistics is not a valid comparison.

I never said Doby was a 1st ballot HoFer, he had a solid career but rightfully was enshrined as a player, I felt like he was being dismissed as having been enshrined only because he was the 1st AA player in the American League, that is not true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I still don't think he's any better than outfielders such as Minoso and Colavito and Oliva etc. who history has adjudged to be one step below Hall level. That does not detract from him in any way, but I do think it's the case that his pioneering role had a lot to do with his selection.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I still don't think he's any better than outfielders such as Minoso and Colavito and Oliva etc. who history has adjudged to be one step below Hall level. That does not detract from him in any way, but I do think it's the case that his pioneering role had a lot to do with his selection.

I hear you and I agree with you about him probably not being better than Minoso, but I also believe Minoso should be in the HOF. That being said Doby had a better HOF career than Oliva and Colavito, especially when you factor in his time in the Negro Leagues.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Career 49.6 War, 7 x all star with a nearly identical number of hits as Jackie Robinson doesn’t really support your last statement. He wasn’t a first ballot HOFer for sure but he isn’t in the Hof only because he was the first AL African American.

I don't think Jackie is a HOFer based purely on his numbers either, so Doby being comparable doesn't change my point of view. I don't think it was the numbers that got either in, it was the contribution to the game. Doby came second, even in the HOF but baseball clearly acknowledges his accomplishments by virtue of his induction.

Look at this way: Doby and Bernie Williams have almost identical careers and even the same WAR at the same position. Bernie Williams will not get into the HOF.

[tedzan]

Hi Rhett

Here's my recollection of the 1947 - 1948 American League events regarding Larry Doby and Satchell Paige. I was only 10 years old then,
but a very avid BB fan (Yankees), and with an unforgetable memory of those great times.
As you know, as you age, the memories of your youth can be surprisingly clear. But, you cannot recall yesterday's events

Anyhow, in 1948 Larry Doby was actually 3rd in the "favorability" column. He was sort of overshadowed by his new teammate, Satchell Paige.
Paige was everyone's favorite. Nonetheless, the two of them together were instrumental in Cleveland's American League Championship victory.

Paige....W-L 6-1 (including 2 Shutouts) and 2.48 ERA
Doby....BA= .301 (132 Hits), 14 HR's, 83 Runs, 66 RBI's

The general Sports media back then of course favored Jackie Robinson. However, the North Jersey sports media really gave Larry Doby a lot of
publicity since he lived in Paterson, NJ.

Larry was a really friendly guy to meet with and chat and get his autograph.


.




Incidentally, in the 1936 Summer Olympics, Jessie Owens certainly deserved all the publicity. Ironically, Mack Robinson (Jackie's older brother)
was also a tremendous athlete in this Olympics. But, how many people recall Mack Robinson's achievement's ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Rhett

Here's my recollection of the 1947 - 1948 American League events regarding Larry Doby and Satchell Paige. I was only 10 years old then,
but a very avid BB fan (Yankees), and with an unforgetable memory of those great times.
As you know, as you age, the memories of your youth can be surprisingly clear. But, you cannot recall yesterday's events

Anyhow, in 1948 Larry Doby was actually 3rd in the "favorability" column. He was sort of overshadowed by his new teammate, Satchell Paige.
Paige was everyone's favorite. Nonetheless, the two of them together were instrumental in Cleveland's American League Championship victory.

Paige....W-L 6-1 (including 2 Shutouts) and 2.48 ERA
Doby....BA= .301 (132 Hits), 14 HR's, 83 Runs, 66 RBI's

The general Sports media back then of course favored Jackie Robinson. However, the North Jersey sports media really gave Larry Doby a lot of
publicity since he lived in Paterson, NJ.

Larry was a really friendly guy to meet with and chat and get his autograph.


.




Incidentally, in the 1936 Summer Olympics, Jessie Owens certainly deserved all the publicity. Ironically, Mack Robinson (Jackie's older brother)
was also a tremendous athlete in this Olympics. But, how many people recall Mack Robinson's achievement's ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, you are correct in that Mack Robinson is really fascinating story as well. The supporting characters in a story often get overlooked is the take home message to all of this, I suppose.