Hey, pennant guys

[bocca001]

Here is mine. The size is different (mine is oversized) and there are some differences with the two seals (although it takes a close look to figure them out). Mine is in pretty good shape too, but close inspection shows signs wear (and maybe a few small nibbles... in the white part of the letters).

If these were reproduced by a company for profit, I wonder why there are not more of them out there? It seems like they would pop up on E-bay more often. They clearly took some time to make. And these that just showed up look so new.

[perezfan]

It can be difficult to determine from a flat one-dimensional computer screen. But I'm pretty sure yours is a repro.

Are the graphics (Seals/Lettering) on yours painted on? Or is it embroidered?

If they are that "raised velvet" type, it's definitely a reproduction.

If the graphics are embroidered/stitched on, it could be an early/authentic example. But the construction looks far more recent than the Embroidered Teens pennants you typically see.

If the graphics are painted/screened on, it could go either way. But I would still lean towards reproduction. There should be some puckering/cracking/chipping to the painted graphics on a pennant of that vintage. Can you post an extreme close-up shot of the Seals and the Lettering? That (and a pic of the reverse side) would tell a lot.

Hope this is helpful.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

It can be difficult to determine from a flat one-dimensional computer screen. But I'm pretty sure yours is a repro.

Are the graphics (Seals/Lettering) on yours painted on? Or is it embroidered?

If they are that "raised velvet" type, it's definitely a reproduction.

If the graphics are embroidered/stitched on, it could be an early/authentic example. But the construction looks far more recent than the Embroidered Teens pennants you typically see.

If the graphics are painted/screened on, it could go either way. But I would still lean towards reproduction. There should be some puckering/cracking/chipping to the painted graphics on a pennant of that vintage. Can you post an extreme close-up shot of the Seals and the Lettering? That (and a pic of the reverse side) would tell a lot.

Hope this is helpful.

Ebbets Field Flannel made repros of minor league pennants 15 or more years ago. They were really well done and people can mistake them for being authentic pennants. That said, I don't know if this one was a pennant they produced, although they do a ton of PLC stuff.

[perezfan]

Yeah.... good point. Pretty sure the Seals Pennant falls into that category, being that it's PCL. It definitely has that Ebbets Field look.

[bocca001]

Mine is stitched/embroidered. It looks just like the one in Egner’s book (p. 226 of the second edition). Features of the two seals on mine match the Egner book, but those in the online one do not. Just from the smell/look, it seems much older than 15-20 years. And the oversize (about 34 inches without the tassels) seems consistent with other pennants from earlier eras. The one on E-bay is 29 inches.

I bought this pennant several years ago on from a seller who had a three or so other old PCL pennants (I remember a Sac one for sure… also on page 226 of Egner’s book). They all sold quickly and were not cheap. I had wondered if the pennants were the exact ones from Egner’s book (as if a long-time collector was selling his collection).

As to whether the style (stitched) is consistent with the timeframe… I’m not sure. It would mean that the one in Egner’s book is not as old as listed, which would not be totally shocking. I can take some other pictures, although it is framed at the moment.

What was the time-frame for the oversized pennants?

[bocca001]

Ok, so here are some close ups (best I could do while framed). You can see what appears to be some damage around some of the letters (white fabric). The tassels also differ from the one currently online (with the notch in mine, not in the online version).

The Seals on mine differ from the one online in terms of a) placement of the two seals (the online one is further from the border and rotated clockwise), b) you can see a nose on mine, but not on the online one, and c) the flipper on the right seal looks different (the currently online one has a horizontal line across the flipper that mine does not have.

Egner's book doesn't show the tassels, but the flipper on mine is consistent with his, the placement of the Seals on mine is consistent with his, the nose is consistent with his (you have to zoom in on the book photo with a camera to see it) and the fact that mine is oversized is consistent with his.

Not sure what that all tells me, other than mine is much more consistent with Egner's book. I still think it might be the exact same one.

I can't get a picture of the back without undoing the frame, but there is no label on it or any evidence of a label.

[thetahat]

I can’t say one way or the other with 100% confidence, but those of you who have known embroidered oversized pennants (like from pre-1920), have you ever seen two colors that are both sewn, one over the other (to create an outline)? Mine are all one-color ...

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Ok, so here are some close ups (best I could do while framed). You can see what appears to be some damage around some of the letters (white fabric). The tassels also differ from the one currently online (with the notch in mine, not in the online version).

The Seals on mine differ from the one online in terms of a) placement of the two seals (the online one is further from the border and rotated clockwise), b) you can see a nose on mine, but not on the online one, and c) the flipper on the right seal looks different (the currently online one has a horizontal line across the flipper that mine does not have.

Egner's book doesn't show the tassels, but the flipper on mine is consistent with his, the placement of the Seals on mine is consistent with his, the nose is consistent with his (you have to zoom in on the book photo with a camera to see it) and the fact that mine is oversized is consistent with his.

Not sure what that all tells me, other than mine is much more consistent with Egner's book. I still think it might be the exact same one.

I can't get a picture of the back without undoing the frame, but there is no label on it or any evidence of a label.

I don't think EFF stitched images onto their pennants. If it is a repro, I doubt they did it.

[bocca001]

I had time to do some searching while my son was at practice. The Seals logo and lettering seems to match better with Seals Uniforms from 1938-1939, not the 1915-1920 dates mentioned by Egner. Or, the 1927 date mentioned by the E-bay seller. See the images below from Ebbets. The pennant logo is not an exact match of the logo used by Ebbets (see the hat), although it is similar in many ways. The Orange lettering on the 1939 jersey is pretty close.

And, trust me, I'm curious to know about the true age of the pennant, even if it is more recent. I know it doesn't match the E-bay one and does match the Egner book one. I also believe mine has a decent amount of age. How much age? I'm not certain.

[thetahat]

Marc, I find it interesting that your pennant has horizontal stitching along the top edge of the white strip (and presumably bottom edge). I can see it faintly in your close up. It makes it impossible to slide a stick or dowel inside. I’ve only seen this once before and it was a very old vintage pennant. This may be another important distinction from what is currently on eBay.

[bocca001]

Greg- Good eyes. It does have horizontal stitching on both the bottom and top. I probably have about 200 pennants. I see two others with the horizontal stitching: Both are pretty old college pennants that also have stitched on letters. One still has the tassels tied (I'm assume that they were tied to the dowel).

[lefty147]

I was able to find the original color photo of the one used in the book. I do not remember where it originally came since so many people were emailing pictures at the time. I tried to find the picture of it before it was resized (to include the tassels) and could not locate it. I think this is the exact pennant you own Marc based on looking at the "S" at the end of Seals you can see the same 4 "nibbles" around the perimeter. Mike

[bocca001]

So, as you can tell from Mike's post, it looks like I have the "real" Seals pennant from his book. But, after looking it over closely with a black light, it is clear that this real pennant isn't real old (the white threads light up). I reached out to seattlerainers and he told me that he thinks the pennant may have been produced in the 1990s, in conjunction with the "Runs, Hits, and and Era" museum exhibit. I'd be curious to know if anyone has ever seen another (or if I have the market cornered).

So, that hurts a bit, as I know I paid a couple hundred for this about 6 years ago. This was one of the first pennants I picked up when I got back into collecting. If I knew then what I know now, I would have realized that the price was really too low if it was a vintage PCL pennant (especially Seals). So it goes.

I am curious to know if any of you have used a black light on your pennants. If you have, what is the oldest pennant with white threads that "light up"?

The good news is that everything on eBay has been on sale on lately, even when buyers accept best offers (thanks, Rob). So I've attached a picture of my "on sale" purchases to end this on a happy note.

[seattlerainiers]

As Marc said, I communicated with him via private message about this pennant. I got more specific information yesterday over lunch with Jerry Cohen of Ebbets Field Flannels.

This Seals pennant was produced by "Cooperstown Co" in the 1990s. Jerry knows the owner of the company, and said that this fellow had high hopes for selling these commercially at the time of production, but that it wasn't successful.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by bocca001

So, as you can tell from Mike's post, it looks like I have the "real" Seals pennant from his book. But, after looking it over closely with a black light, it is clear that this real pennant isn't real old (the white threads light up). I reached out to seattlerainers and he told me that he thinks the pennant may have been produced in the 1990s, in conjunction with the "Runs, Hits, and and Era" museum exhibit. I'd be curious to know if anyone has ever seen another (or if I have the market cornered).

So, that hurts a bit, as I know I paid a couple hundred for this about 6 years ago. This was one of the first pennants I picked up when I got back into collecting. If I knew then what I know now, I would have realized that the price was really too low if it was a vintage PCL pennant (especially Seals). So it goes.

I am curious to know if any of you have used a black light on your pennants. If you have, what is the oldest pennant with white threads that "light up"?

The good news is that everything on eBay has been on sale on lately, even when buyers accept best offers (thanks, Rob). So I've attached a picture of my "on sale" purchases to end this on a happy note.

Sorry it didn't turn out to be what you'd hoped, but thank you for starting the discussion about your pennant -- and others like it. It's been interesting and informative.

[Fballguy]

That's a bummer. But we've all likely been there. I know I have. Live and learn. When it comes to this hobby, there's A LOT to learn.

On the bright side..You picked up some nice pennants. Love that Oilers.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by seattlerainiers

As Marc said, I communicated with him via private message about this pennant. I got more specific information yesterday over lunch with Jerry Cohen of Ebbets Field Flannels.

This Seals pennant was produced by "Cooperstown Co" in the 1990s. Jerry knows the owner of the company, and said that this fellow had high hopes for selling these commercially at the time of production, but that it wasn't successful.

Thanks for sealing the deal on this one! It just never felt right, in terms of its construction and obvious pristine condition. But before we "close the book" on it, I have a final question...

Many/most of these repro pennants are based on actual vintage pennant designs. This holds true for both Cooperstown and Mitchell & Ness. A few are completely "conjured up" designs, but the vast majority are relatively faithful copies of the real thing.

So.... Was this Seals Pennant design based on an actual Teens Oversized Pennant? Or is it just a fantasy creation that the artist/designer concocted on his/her own? In other words.... Has anyone ever seen a real one?

[bocca001]

I'll defer to PCL experts about whether a real pre-war pennant like this might exist, but everything I found suggested probably not. The letter style on the pennant seems to be a mishmash of 1938-1944 styles, with colors and letter style from 1938/1939 and the white underneath the letters from 1944 (although the Seals letters appear more red than Orange in 1944). They also had a hat with the Seal on it from about 1938-1940, which ties in with the two seal figures on the pennant.

I still think it is strange that there are two different versions of this pennant. I do know that the ebay Seals pennant looks much newer than the one I own, and that (although the condition is too strong for something super old) mine looks older than other things I own from the 1990s. But the black light doesn't lie. It just can't be that old. Still, the ebay one seems like a copy of the one I have.

I am curious if anyone has taken a black light to some of their 1950s - 1970s pennants. I found paint/print that would light up, but rarely the stitching.

[seattlerainiers]

[QUOTE=bocca001;1765132]I'll defer to PCL experts about whether a real pre-war pennant like this might exist, but everything I found suggested probably not. The letter style on the pennant seems to be a mishmash of 1938-1944 styles, with colors and letter style from 1938/1939 and the white underneath the letters from 1944 (although the Seals letters appear more red than Orange in 1944). They also had a hat with the Seal on it from about 1938-1940, which ties in with the two seal figures on the pennant.

I think that Marc is correct ^

I believe that Cooperstown conjured the design of that pennant, vs. reproducing an original. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt it.

The teens PCL pennants that I am aware of include two different magnificent SF Seals Opening Day pennants that are tucked away in an advanced PCL collection, two of the Oakland Oaks pennant shown here, and a 1914 Sacramento Wolves pennant.

Also pictured are a few of my Seals pennants. The 1945 Seals pennant appears to have been hand made, although period. The 1949 Japan tour pennants are very high quality and were each personalized with the name of the Seals player that they were made for, making all surviving examples "one of a kind".

[perezfan]

WOW.... Some killer pennants. Especially that early Oakland Oaks.

I had seen the Red Seals Pennant (which turns up sporadically), but have never seen those others. Great stuff!

[bocca001]

Yes... WOW. Those are great to see. Thanks!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I am curious to know if any of you have used a black light on your pennants. If you have, what is the oldest pennant with white threads that "light up"?

The good news is that everything on eBay has been on sale on lately, even when buyers accept best offers (thanks, Rob). So I've attached a picture of my "on sale" purchases to end this on a happy note.

Great pickups, Marc!

I have never used or heard of the black light test. What is it that then test proves or suggests?

[bocca001]

It is my understanding that only cloth/paper made after about WWII will "light up" under a black light. These materials sort of glow under the light, due to artificial whiteners/brighteners. It can be especially apparent in thread used for stitching. So, if something glows under the black light, in can’t be older than when these whiteners/brighteners came into use. But not all new materials will glow. So, if it glows, it can’t be that old. If it doesn’t glow, it may or may not be old.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-collectibles/

[999Tony]

Pennant Fever: The Story of a New Obsession

So until recently, I was just another run of the mill baseball card collector. I didn't own a single pennant. Then I started reading this thread. I noticed a change in myself partway through. I began to get an itch, then an urge, then a fervent need to have pennants. A couple weeks ago I began scouring ebay for every baseball pennant listing. There were tons of cools ones that I just HAD to have. I put opening bids on 20 or 30. I watched 30 or 40 more. I checked the listing multiple times a day. But the fever hadn't completely overwhelmed me. I realized I had no idea of values or scarcity, so I wouldn't do any crazy bidding until I got the price guide. Plus, I needed to focus, start with getting a single team. The KC Monarchs pennant was awesome, but out of my price range. So I decided to start with getting KC A's pennants --doable, weren't in existence that long, there were several cool pennant for sale, I decided I really wanted one of the cool white elephant ones. Gotta get a white elephant!

So I got my first pennant. Late at night there was one I put in a really low bid. Within five minutes the seller accepted, without even a counteroffer (uhoh. For those who don't know, not a good sign)

See photo. Take a moment to study it closely, if you've read this far . . .
Did a dog chew off the end?



Oh, you say. Well. Um--er--well it does have character. Hey, if you like it, that's cool, people should collect what they like, as long as you enjoy it, and condition doesn't bother you, good for you . . .you must be a big Knicks fan.

I say --no not at all. Don't care at all about the Knicks. Never even lived in New York, or anywhere close.

Oh you say. Well at least you started an NBA collection.
I say true, but I don't care about the NBA --don't collect any basketball stuff.

Oh. You say. In that case, CONGRATULATIONS! You got your white elephant after all!




(I actually love the vintage look of my white elephant. Though I am hoping to get some other white elephants in the future)

[Fballguy]

Welcome to the addiction. Slight tip damage but otherwise a cool pennant.

I have a white elephant on eBay right now....just saying.

[perezfan]

Welcome Tony...

Question... Did the ebay seller picture the tip in his listing? If not, I'd say you have a case, and an automatic return (should you desire). If he did picture the tip, then it's yours in all its glory.

These types of condition issues do severely impact the value of the pennant. I can see why the seller snapped up your offer, as it's very tough to sell these tattered ones. Still a cool and pretty rare pennant.

I may throw a few of my A's White Elephant pennants onto this thread, just to wet your whistle and spice things up. If they show up sideways, I won't bother. Regardless, you should have no trouble finding some nice ones on your own. If you search ebay, just be sure to exclude all the cheapies under $20. You'll save yourself countless hours of futility. Welcome to the club!

[999Tony]

Oh no, it was all on me. The seller was very very open and honest about the poor condition. The seller showed a close up of the tip, er I mean the missing tip and chewed up end. It was late at night and the plastic pennant container was included, and I don't have any pennant sleeves yet . . . it was really cheap . .

So this is perfect for me. If there isn't anyone collecting tattered pennants, I will have the market to myself! Though if anyone has seen the 1961 Reds pennant on ebay for $9.99, that has been relisted, you're welcome to it, as even though I'm a Reds fan, that one is too battered and ugly even for me! See, I do have standards.

[Fballguy]

Yeah that one is rough, but there's a nicer one for sale for $49.99 too. Several others listed with prices all over the place ranging from $100 to $200.

Many people just throw prices out there to see what sticks...I do it too.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Don’t get too worked up about the condition, if you like it thats all that matters. That is actually a tougher version for the Knicks and generally anything pre 70’s in basketball is fairly rare. Have fun and collect what you like.

[999Tony]

Hey --I was just kidding around in my post, even though it really happened the way I told it. I guess you didn't read all of my post -- I presciently paraphrased what you just said re collect what you like . . . as long as you like it, that's what matters . . .

I paid almost nothing for the pennant. It is AWESOME! I don't care what anyone else thinks about it. I am really happy with it. I already gave the seller very positive feedback.

I thought it was funny that I bought the wrong kind of white elephant . . .but apparently no one else did.

[ooo-ribay]

Pennants are definitely a passion for me. Even the very best ones go for a fraction of what the mass produced ‘52 Mantle cards fetch. I have a couple hundred SF Giants pennants. There are maybe 5-10 other Giants pennants I have seen but don’t have. My “buddy” has outbid me on most of those.

[ooo-ribay]

I just picked this one up....it caught my eye months ago on ebay because it is a different material (nylon-ish) and color of another Giants pennant which, to my knowledge, was only produced in one color and the sliding player graphic was never used on other Giants pennants. That pennant, in itself, is fairly tough and will usually fetch around $100.

Anyway, the silver pennant had an opening bid of $90 and shipping was $25 from Argentina. I asked the seller a few questions: how big is it? is the top of the "S" in "San" cut off (misprinted) or is that just a wrinkle? The seller, who I'm sure only knew a little English, gave me the size in cm and told me "yes, the printing is cut off." I miscalculated cm to inches and replied "so, it's 14 inches?" The seller said yes.

So, the fact it was a mini and misprinted meant there was no way I was paying $115. A month or so later, the price dropped to $70. Still, no. Then it dropped to $40. Still, no. Finally she listed it for a buck and I was the only bidder.

It arrived today. First check out what $25 gets you at the Buenos Aires post office . Then, look at what I got. In Fballguy Rob's words, "pennant oragami." But it ironed out just fine, the print is NOT cut off and it's 18", not 14". I'm thrilled with it. I'm calling it a South American release. BTW, it never ceases to amaze me what crappy pictures some ebay sellers use in their listings (last image attached).

[Fballguy]

That is a sweet find Rob! Give me a second while I pull my calculator out...

Are you saying you got this for $1.00 plus $25 shipping? LOL

That may be the worst item cost to shipping ratio I've ever heard but what a fantastic buy for $26!!

Congrats on a very cool pick up.

And don't complain too loudly about the poor pictures. They probably keep the bidding/offers low and that's fine with me. If you have a trained eye, which I know everyone here does...or are proactive enough to as a question or two...you get some great deals with those bad pics. Like you just did...albeit against all odds with that misinformation.

PS...Love her shipping method. That would've been $3.00 in the U.S. Imagine the deal you would've gotten if she lived in Sheboygan.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

That is a sweet find Rob! Give me a second while I pull my calculator out...

Are you saying you got this for $1.00 plus $25 shipping? LOL

That may be the worst item cost to shipping ratio I've ever heard but what a fantastic buy for $26!!

Congrats on a very cool pick up.

And don't complain too loudly about the poor pictures. They probably keep the bidding/offers low and that's fine with me. If you have a trained eye, which I know everyone here does...or are proactive enough to as a question or two...you get some great deals with those bad pics. Like you just did...albeit against all odds with that misinformation.

PS...Love her shipping method. That would've been $3.00 in the U.S. Imagine the deal you would've gotten if she lived in Sheboygan.

Yep, one dollar item, 25 dollar shipping. BTW, I believe it actually did cost her very close to mail that envelope. I checked to see if there was a Central/South American ebay but there is not. Gotta believe there’s some good baseball stuff in those countries.

Totally agree on the bad pictures can make for great buys. They can be a buyer’s best friend!

[71buc]

Awesome pick up Rob. That was a dollar well spent!

[bocca001]

Picked up these two this week. Really exicted about the black one (even though it is not mint), as it doesn't seem to come up very often.

I've been trying to pick up some older Houston Oilers pennants too, but some pennant loving football fan keeps sneaking in to get them.

[effe]

It kind of looks like a full sized version of the early 50's mini pennants.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

I've been trying to pick up some older Houston Oilers pennants too, but some pennant loving football fan keeps sneaking in to get them.

That guy sounds like a real jerk. Who collects football pennants anyway!?!?

[bocca001]

Let's see the Oilers pennants.

Did anyone here pick up this rare Keezer (sp?) Houston Astros pennant from eBay this past week? It wasn't me. I'm still waiting for Greg to sell me his.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Picked up these two this week. Really exicted about the black one (even though it is not mint), as it doesn't seem to come up very often.

I've been trying to pick up some older Houston Oilers pennants too, but some pennant loving football fan keeps sneaking in to get them.

Great Giants pennant. I think it's from soon after the move, because I have two of the NY version. There's also a tiny brass like pin of that same giant.

[ooo-ribay]

Like this:

[perezfan]

Both the Pin and NY Giants Pennant are from 1951. So it's interesting that the SF Giants would rekindle that Mascot 7 years (or more) later.

Nice pickups Marc!

[bocca001]

Thanks, Mark and Rob.

Makes me wonder about distribution. Were these pennants produced by the team? Did they "take" the designs from NY to SF? Or were vendors producing pennants in NY with old designs and then transporting them to SF for sale?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Both the Pin and NY Giants Pennant are from 1951. So it's interesting that the SF Giants would rekindle that Mascot 7 years (or more) later.

Nice pickups Marc!

I’m curious, Mark, how you’re dating that pennant to 1951. I know the pins have sold on their original store displays and I’m guessung there might be a copyright date on those displays. Is it not possible for the NY pennant to be 1951 through 1957?

[perezfan]

Yes it’s possible that they kept the pennant running for a number of years. It was commonly done by many teams, and is quite possible.

I can date that style to 1951 because I have had a couple from that series of Pennants with ink hand writing on the reverse, commemorating the event. Both were dated... the St. Louis Browns was July something, and the Philly Athletics was from a Field Trip of some kind in August... both dated 1951.

But as you said... they could possibly have been produced for a number of subsequent years. The only evidence against that is the fact that this series is quite rare. The ones that were produced in long runs are typically more common today... like the Indians Pennant with Chief Wahoo’s Head, or the Reds with the Batter inside the “C”, or the Pirates with the Pirate Head biting the Knife. The ones you see over and over... and this Giants version is not in that category.

[bocca001]

Who else has a pennant with baseball produce? Yep, that is a head of lettuce playing baseball. From the California League of my youth.

If only the early 1900 CA teams had pennants. We could see the Fresno Raisin Eaters and San Jose Prune Pickers.

[perezfan]

Very cool one, Marc...

And don’t forget the famed Gilroy Garlic Growers!

[gradedcollectibles10]

1955 Brooklyn Dodgers Championship Pennant

[Kzoo]

Guys............I picked this Tigers full size pennant up last week. The style of the Tiger logo matches the 1940's version in Mike Egner's book, but this version I have reads 'Mich.' instead of 'Tigers'. Is this a more scarce version? Thanks.......Matt

[Fballguy]

I'm guessing it's a travel pennant...the logo seemed to fit multiple genres.