Importance of Provenance

[drcy]

Ideally, provenance gives you the history all the way to the origin or early owner, but, for altered cards, even just going back a step or two can reveal issues. If you find an earlier auction showing that a card has been altered, that is an example of provenance and why it is important. Game used collectors often find where a bat or jersey has been altered since it's last sale (number on a bat change, fake use added, etc) -- which is an example of provenance. The linked column at the bottom gives examples where past sales have shown problems with items.

Of course, provenance isn't foolproof and doesn't prove everything. Of course, there isn't documentation and pictures for all cards. Of course, some cards are obtained from a garage sale or found in an attic. Even if someone has a receipt from 30 years ago, there probably isn't a picture. But it still an important consideration and piece in the puzzle. If a card doctor is offering a Gem Mint graded card, he won't be able to show where he got the card-- because he didn't obtain it in that state. If someone is about to drop $50,000 on a Gem Mint card and doesn't even ask where the card came from, I would say that person is pretty stupid.

In fact, I bet in the future, cards with decent provenance-- as opposed to high grade cards that appear out of nowhere-- will receive a premium in value. Many card collects ignore or dismiss provenance for cards, but if it is revealed that there has been mass doctoring of cards, they likely will change their tune.

With famous old masters artworks, provenance helps prove authenticity and identity, along with giving evidence of its age. Here it's not a matter of condition, but identity and age.

The Importance of Provenance in Collecting

[oldjudge]

To go to the other end of the spectrum, it means zero to me. Whether the card was previously owned by Mickey Mantle or Shlomo Mantle, the butcher, means little to me. I just care about the card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

To go to the other end of the spectrum, it means zero to me. Whether the card was previously owned by Mickey Mantle or Shlomo Mantle, the butcher, means little to me. I just care about the card.

Ditto to this.

[swarmee]

I paid $50 for a $2 card last week because it had Jeff Burdick's back stamp. Wanted one of those anyways, but this one was in the set I collect mainly (T51 colleges). First one I've seen with his stamp in the four years I've been collecting, so I thought it was worth it.
There are people that will pay extra for F. Scott Fitzgerald's stamped cards as well.

[drcy]

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens. I don't know about you guys, but I thought that pretty cool, even though I didn't like having to read his 900 page novels in English class.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by drcy

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens.

Are you sure they didn't actually belong to Charles Dikkens the well-known Dutch author?

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by Gary Dunaier

Are you sure they didn't actually belong to Charles Dikkens the well-known Dutch author?

Have to be careful, I heard about a guy that bought the wrong Jon Voights car. Turned out to belong to a dentist, not the actor.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by drcy

I cataloged a bunch of CDVs that belonged to Charles Dickens. I don't know about you guys, but I thought that pretty cool, even though I didn't like having to read his 900 page novels in English class.

I am one-third of the way through 'David Copperfield' right now. I never read it before. Barnes and Nobles had this large group of classic books for $5.00 in store. I bought quite a few. I have read 'Great Expectations', 'A Tale of Two Cities', 'The Art of War', 'Siddartha', 'The Origin of Species' and 'The Count of Monte Cristo' so far this year. Next up is 'The Brothers Karamazov' or 'Bleak House' each 800 pages or so. The toughest read was 'The Origin of Species'.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Michael B

I am one-third of the way through 'David Copperfield' right now. I never read it before. Barnes and Nobles had this large group of classic books for $5.00 in store. I bought quite a few. I have read 'Great Expectations', 'A Tale of Two Cities', 'The Art of War', 'Siddartha', 'The Origin of Species' and 'The Count of Monte Cristo' so far this year. Next up is 'The Brothers Karamazov' or 'Bleak House' each 800 pages or so. The toughest read was 'The Origin of Species'.

The Brothers Karamazov is a great book. Dostoyevski was my favorite author, back when I used to read. The length never bothered me. Michener, on the other hand, ugh.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I paid $50 for a $2 card last week because it had Jeff Burdick's back stamp. Wanted one of those anyways, but this one was in the set I collect mainly (T51 colleges). First one I've seen with his stamp in the four years I've been collecting, so I thought it was worth it.
There are people that will pay extra for F. Scott Fitzgerald's stamped cards as well.

These are to two situations where provenance has mattered to me--my Burdick and Fitzgerald* cards. But, I didn't pick those up because I wanted the card but rather because I wanted something tied to the prior owner. Just like, at some point, I'll pick up a Lionel Carter card to have that in my collection.

If I was looking to purchase a Mickey Mantle card, short of having been owned by Mantle himself, I wouldn't care whether it was an original owner card, part of some find, etc.

[packs]

I just can't think of a reason why provenance would be important for something issued in the tens of thousands or perhaps even millions.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I just can't think of a reason why provenance would be important for something issued in the tens of thousands or perhaps even millions.

Not everything was issued in huge quantities like that.

I can think of a couple instances where it could matter.

In the case of a card that's "new" or very nearly unknown. Like if someone turned up a T206 with a Hustler back. The provenance would matter since the card was listed probably by error years ago as a known back, but it's generally believed that they never existed.
Wouldn't you want to know as much as possible about where it's supposedly been since 1910?
If it's from some random guy would you trust it as much as if it came from the family of an early collector who traded at least a list with Burdick and had letters from him mentioning the card?


Or, a more common card.
Lets say you can afford and really want a nice green Cobb T206. You find one, but it was previously owned by someone who was a known card doctor.
say it's pretty high grade, maybe a 6 or 7.
How much do you trust it knowing that it was owned by someone who altered cards regularly?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

I paid $50 for a $2 card last week because it had Jeff Burdick's back stamp. Wanted one of those anyways, but this one was in the set I collect mainly (T51 colleges). First one I've seen with his stamp in the four years I've been collecting, so I thought it was worth it.
There are people that will pay extra for F. Scott Fitzgerald's stamped cards as well.

Me too. I paid a bit extra for a Burdick stamped card. IMO well worth it. I also paid up for a manufacturer file copy of a card. And there is a definite provenance factor for Topps Vault certified materials.

[nolemmings]

I don't think it's fair for me to render an opinion, since I've never been to Rhode Island.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I don't think it's fair for me to render an opinion, since I've never been to Rhode Island.

Todd-I enjoyed the line, even if no one else caught it.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

To go to the other end of the spectrum, it means zero to me. Whether the card was previously owned by Mickey Mantle or Shlomo Mantle, the butcher, means little to me. I just care about the card.

This.

For Cards, it doesn’t matter to me...It matters in memorabilia, like with game used bats, for instance (where chain of ownership is sometimes vital in authenticating the piece).

[rainier2004]

So I don't collect high grade anything, I wouldn't know a psa 8 if it bit me where the Sun don't shine. I collect rarities, items that have less than 20 known examples from the pre-ww1 era.

I do my own check, I check with others and if everything pans out I am good. I honestly couldn't care less about provenance in any way, shape or form...it just doesn't matter to me as long as it passes my personal checks. Its just cards...

[drcy]

As a photograph guy, an example of provenance being helpful is when you have a photo with a famous image but without any photographers stamp on it. In cases, the provenance, or sales history, shows or gives evidence that it is by the famous photographer. For example, provenance can show it came from the archives of the magazine he worked for or even his estate. In one case, I had unstamped photographs by a famous photographer where the photos came from his landlord who sold his effects when the photographer left the country without paying his due rent. I later talked to the photographer and he acknowledged that the photos had been his. He didn't ask for the photos back, but did ask me to scan them for him.

But, obviously. this is a case where provenance is important to identification and authenticity, not condition grade or historical prestige (other than as it relates to authentication).

My philosophy on cards is if it's only worth something if it's graded 9 or 10, it's probably not much of a card.