OT: Hall of Fame - Edgar Martinez?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 01-26-2018, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

During Ozzie Smith's top 8 seasons, he averaged 545 assists. During Omar Visquel's top 8 seasons, he averaged 440 assists. That is 105 hits per season that got by Omar that Ozzie Smith turned into outs. Strong arm or bare handing balls are irrelevant when you can't catch the ball. The fact is that Omar had average range. Being the best at making routine plays doesn't make you a Hofer. Saving your team over 100 outs per season and the runs those hits would have produced is deserving of Hof.

There is one guy on the Hof ballot who deserves Hof for his defense, Andrew Jones. Jones saved his team 243 runs in 15 seasons compared to Omar Vizquel saving only 133 runs over 24 seasons. Jones was 11% above league average offensively, not 18% below average like Vizquel. The only advantage Vizquel has is sticking around for 24 years. Are we going to elect Jaime Moyer and Charlie Hough to the Hof too? They played longer than Vizquel.

Who made more errors on average? Also I'm not quite sure having X more assists than the next guy automatically translates into the next guy let X more balls by him for hits. By that logic why didn't Tejada, who led the league in assists 7 times during his career, ever win a gold glove?

packs · #2 01-26-2018, 02:57 PM

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

tschock · #3 01-26-2018, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

Yes and no. You can't penalize a guy because another guy didn't hit the ball to him. But in the aggregate, it is VERY LIKELY that as many balls were hit in the same area, making it statistically similar. And that's the comparison. A 20% difference is pretty significant.

packs · #4 01-26-2018, 03:32 PM

He's talking about assists. You can't get an assist without a ball hit to you. Assuming the difference in assists figures is based on base hits seems presumptuous.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 01-26-2018, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tschock

Yes and no. You can't penalize a guy because another guy didn't hit the ball to him. But in the aggregate, it is VERY LIKELY that as many balls were hit in the same area, making it statistically similar. And that's the comparison. A 20% difference is pretty significant.

That assumption may or may not be true. If it is, then range factor should be the be all and end all, no? But obviously people think it isn't because newer metrics keep getting invented.

rats60 · #6 01-26-2018, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I didn't realize you could penalize a guy because a batter didn't hit a ball to him. Great next gen stats.

That is the whole point of playing shortstop. When the ball isn't hit directly to you, you have the ability to go get the ball and make a play. Ozzie Smith fielded balls that other shortstops, including Vizquel couldn't get to.

If Vizquel was some great shortstop, you would think he would lead the league in assists once, just from some random variance. Derek Jeter was a statue and he led once and finished second once. Your idea that balls were never hit close to Vizquel is absurd. I took an 8 year sample because there is going to be some variance, but when Vizquel is never close to Smith, even one single season, it just confirms what I saw. Smith had great range, Vizquel had average range.

You keep bringing up Gold Gloves. Gold Gloves are a popularity contest, voted on by managers. How else do you explain Derek Jeter winning 5? He is universally regarded as a bad defensive shortstop.

packs · #7 01-26-2018, 04:29 PM

That's a really poor argument. You said before that the difference in assists must be because Vizquel let base hits through. There's no way to know that. Bringing Jeter into things doesn't seem to fit either. There hasn't only been 2 shortstops to ever win 5 gold gloves. Vizquel won 11.

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